4 ms·

I'm not sure it's that you're a woman or that you're empathetic, good natured, choose to avoid conflict, in addition to being technically skilled. There does se

I'm not sure it's that you're a woman or that you're empathetic, good natured, choose to avoid conflict, in addition to being technically skilled. There does seem to be a correlation between the two, but in my experience, what you're discussing here isn't unique to women. I see it happen to a lot of men as well, including myself. They are manipulators. Their skill isn't in getting their job done, it's in manipulating other people into doing it for them. I think for me, it's about boundaries. If someone continually pushes or crosses my boundaries, then that's the biggest red flag. If I push back and they push harder, then something is going wrong. You giving of yourself should be an act of freewill in pursuit of something greater for all, not to avoid the negative repercussions of saying no. When I find myself saying yes to avoid being lashed out at, threatened, extorted, coerced, insulted, etc, then it's time to go. I'll tolerate it once or twice or even more times than that. I excuse bad behavior from others away with "I'm too sensitive" or "I know what they say isn't true" or "they don't understand what they just did." But after too much of it, it doesn't matter. At some point, the math tips to it being worse to be around them than not, so I won't be around them anymore. In fact, I suppose, it adds up somehow, I don't know the formula. Like... if someone does something, I let it slide, but if they do it again, then it's not just 1 + 1 = 2, it's more like 1 + 1.25 = 2.25. When it gets to 10, I'm done. A memory multiplier, if you will. "You've done this twice now. I laughed it off the first time, but I'm noticing a trend and I don't appreciate it." Then the third time, it's 1 + 1.25 + 2.50 = 4.75. Why? 1 for the first strike. 1 + 0.25 for the second strike, because it includes the memory of the first one. 2.50 for the third strike, because 2 memories, plus violating a direct ask to avoid repeating the bad behavior. Something like that.

DoreenMichele 5y ago
I have reason to believe that my gender is a factor. I'm absolutely not suggesting that no one ever does any men dirty. I did some volunteer work in town for a couple of organizations that are supposedly trying to do economic development and I was trying to use that as a means to make connections and develop a better income. I had applied for a job locally and the guy that got it fits your terrific description: He's a manipulator and has no talent for doing the job. He was stealing ideas from me and actively denying me credit, thereby killing my hopes of establishing a better income on the ground locally. He and other people were loading me up with volunteer work because I was actually getting things done and he apparently wasn't. He measured his so-called productivity in terms of the number of meetings he attended each month. I quit all my volunteer work last year in May. It wasn't any one thing and he wasn't the only reason. Part of it was the pandemic and I just didn't want to become "the dog everyone kicks" because we are all losing our marbles during a pandemic. I am absolutely certain that after I quit in part to try to escape his abusive bullshit, this awful guy continued to cyberstalk me and steal ideas from me without giving me credit, like he did when I was doing volunteer work in a good faith effort to help my town become a better place. And I cannot tell you how burned, used and pissed off I feel about his amazingly shitty, abusive behavior. It's gone way beyond the pale for being anything understandable or excusable. But I think one element of why he was able to get away with his crap is that I did a lot of volunteer work when I was a homemaker and a number of people involved in these organizations are married women doing volunteer work themselves (mostly retirees in this case). And I think some of these people failed to connect the dots that I was obviously very poor and clearly trying to improve my income. I think some of them just sort of mentally lumped me in with other women there who weren't there with any goal of improving their own income because they have enough. That one guy who was stealing my ideas and intentionally screwing me over -- his behavior is outright unethical and wholly unforgivable. But I have mixed feelings about the part other people played and I can see where some of them just sort of assumed on some level that I was a comfortably well off homemaker whose man was taking care of her even though that clearly was not true. And that's partly because I am a former homemaker and likely behaved a lot like these other women who have well-heeled husbands and don't need to network to try to establish an income. I "read" as being enough like them that kind of on autopilot they failed to get the memo that "I'm here because you people are supposedly doing economic development and I'm dirt poor and need more earned income." Like you, I also take time to gather information and make a decision based on context and patterns over time. Abusers, like the guy stealing my ideas, like to interpret that as "She's put up with it this long. She will keep putting up with it." That seems to be a key difference. Decent people seem to be more aware that "I've got two strikes against me already. I need to get it right from here on out or I'm through." and abusers are like "They let it slide twice. They will clearly let it slide again and I can count on this indefinitely." (And then they actively try to con you into "just one more chance...just one more chance.." ad infinitum.) And it's a case of "I know you actually know better and are intentionally being abusive because you keep trying to take more from me even after I've tried to cut your sorry ass out of my life, you piece of shit of a human being." This is far beyond "I gave freely and he just was too stupid to realize that I expected him to actually do his job and help me improve my income." He's not qualified to do the job. He knows that. He obviously knows that and has zero plans to actually do the job and had zero compunction about actively denying me opportunity -- in direct contradiction to his duties -- so he could pretend to have ideas of his own and pretend to work just enough to keep his paycheck. Keeping his paycheck was his only real goal and he doesn't care that he's not only crapping all over me, he's crapping all over this small town that is paying him to make the town better. He's basically a vampire. I think he absolutely knows that and isn't at all bothered by it. He has zero ethics or conscience.
- bourgwaletariat 5y ago
  That is a terrible situation. We are overrun by vampires, leeches, skimmers and thieves. People with zero ethics or conscience. They have an advantage. Lauded in silicon valley, politics, corporations. Sociopaths and psychopaths. I don't know what the solution is. I don't think they can be fixed. Sometimes, removing the leeches causes more damage. They come after you and come after you. They are relentless in their defense of ego and pursuit of undue fame and fortune. Most of the others are cowards, who won't stand up to them. Afraid of the abuse. "Is that the hill you want to die on?" "Why are you causing conflict?" Just go along with it. Keep your head down. Tall poppy syndrome. Etc. Etc. Etc. We are in real trouble. The facts are clear. We can look at them and see what reality is. But we are intentionally choosing another path. Why? I don't understand why. I think we've relied on a formula for human interaction that seems good for a little while. Stable. Beneficial. Suddenly collapsing into chaos. Unethical, unconscionable people slowly gain power until revolution erupts. They will not. They refuse to give up any power. They shape the the violence and conflict to profit from that too. We are still driven by primitive emotions. Fear. Lust. Those emotions are used to manipulate the unconscious masses into poverty and powerlessness. A society built on a set of rules that benefits attributes of human character we resent in the individuals around us can't lead to good attributes. That guy was wrought full of greed. He would steal your ideas. Lie. Cheat. We hate those character traits, but reward them handsomely. It'll never work. We have to think of something new. Sadly, it's probably too late. We've predicted it for thousands of years and seen it happen countless times without changing our ways. Why now? Following the rules is a disadvantage. Integrity is an evolutionarily disadvantageous trait. Honesty is the worst policy. Ulterior motives. Plotting. Conniving. Betrayal. These will always win the game against someone playing by the rules. Whose rules? I don't know. I don't know what the rules are anymore. I'm going to be good anyway and hope it rights itself. Someone is going to have to clean up all the rubble and feed people and give them shelter. Who is that going to be? Look for the helpers.
- DreamScatter 5y ago
  Well, I have to disagree. I don't believe your story has anything to do with you being a woman in that situation. There are plenty of male people who also don't have a network and who get taken advantage of and have their ideas stolen without credit. This happens all the time on a daily basis and has absolutely nothing to do with gender. It's a real problem, but in my impression it seems to be a quite standard problem with humanity and not gender.

DoreenMichele 5y ago

I have reason to believe that my gender is a factor. I'm absolutely not suggesting that no one ever does any men dirty. I did some volunteer work in town for a couple of organizations that are supposedly trying to do economic development and I was trying to use that as a means to make connections and develop a better income. I had applied for a job locally and the guy that got it fits your terrific description: He's a manipulator and has no talent for doing the job. He was stealing ideas from me and actively denying me credit, thereby killing my hopes of establishing a better income on the ground locally. He and other people were loading me up with volunteer work because I was actually getting things done and he apparently wasn't. He measured his so-called productivity in terms of the number of meetings he attended each month. I quit all my volunteer work last year in May. It wasn't any one thing and he wasn't the only reason. Part of it was the pandemic and I just didn't want to become "the dog everyone kicks" because we are all losing our marbles during a pandemic. I am absolutely certain that after I quit in part to try to escape his abusive bullshit, this awful guy continued to cyberstalk me and steal ideas from me without giving me credit, like he did when I was doing volunteer work in a good faith effort to help my town become a better place. And I cannot tell you how burned, used and pissed off I feel about his amazingly shitty, abusive behavior. It's gone way beyond the pale for being anything understandable or excusable. But I think one element of why he was able to get away with his crap is that I did a lot of volunteer work when I was a homemaker and a number of people involved in these organizations are married women doing volunteer work themselves (mostly retirees in this case). And I think some of these people failed to connect the dots that I was obviously very poor and clearly trying to improve my income. I think some of them just sort of mentally lumped me in with other women there who weren't there with any goal of improving their own income because they have enough. That one guy who was stealing my ideas and intentionally screwing me over -- his behavior is outright unethical and wholly unforgivable. But I have mixed feelings about the part other people played and I can see where some of them just sort of assumed on some level that I was a comfortably well off homemaker whose man was taking care of her even though that clearly was not true. And that's partly because I am a former homemaker and likely behaved a lot like these other women who have well-heeled husbands and don't need to network to try to establish an income. I "read" as being enough like them that kind of on autopilot they failed to get the memo that "I'm here because you people are supposedly doing economic development and I'm dirt poor and need more earned income." Like you, I also take time to gather information and make a decision based on context and patterns over time. Abusers, like the guy stealing my ideas, like to interpret that as "She's put up with it this long. She will keep putting up with it." That seems to be a key difference. Decent people seem to be more aware that "I've got two strikes against me already. I need to get it right from here on out or I'm through." and abusers are like "They let it slide twice. They will clearly let it slide again and I can count on this indefinitely." (And then they actively try to con you into "just one more chance...just one more chance.." ad infinitum.) And it's a case of "I know you actually know better and are intentionally being abusive because you keep trying to take more from me even after I've tried to cut your sorry ass out of my life, you piece of shit of a human being." This is far beyond "I gave freely and he just was too stupid to realize that I expected him to actually do his job and help me improve my income." He's not qualified to do the job. He knows that. He obviously knows that and has zero plans to actually do the job and had zero compunction about actively denying me opportunity -- in direct contradiction to his duties -- so he could pretend to have ideas of his own and pretend to work just enough to keep his paycheck. Keeping his paycheck was his only real goal and he doesn't care that he's not only crapping all over me, he's crapping all over this small town that is paying him to make the town better. He's basically a vampire. I think he absolutely knows that and isn't at all bothered by it. He has zero ethics or conscience.

bourgwaletariat 5y ago
That is a terrible situation. We are overrun by vampires, leeches, skimmers and thieves. People with zero ethics or conscience. They have an advantage. Lauded in silicon valley, politics, corporations. Sociopaths and psychopaths. I don't know what the solution is. I don't think they can be fixed. Sometimes, removing the leeches causes more damage. They come after you and come after you. They are relentless in their defense of ego and pursuit of undue fame and fortune. Most of the others are cowards, who won't stand up to them. Afraid of the abuse. "Is that the hill you want to die on?" "Why are you causing conflict?" Just go along with it. Keep your head down. Tall poppy syndrome. Etc. Etc. Etc. We are in real trouble. The facts are clear. We can look at them and see what reality is. But we are intentionally choosing another path. Why? I don't understand why. I think we've relied on a formula for human interaction that seems good for a little while. Stable. Beneficial. Suddenly collapsing into chaos. Unethical, unconscionable people slowly gain power until revolution erupts. They will not. They refuse to give up any power. They shape the the violence and conflict to profit from that too. We are still driven by primitive emotions. Fear. Lust. Those emotions are used to manipulate the unconscious masses into poverty and powerlessness. A society built on a set of rules that benefits attributes of human character we resent in the individuals around us can't lead to good attributes. That guy was wrought full of greed. He would steal your ideas. Lie. Cheat. We hate those character traits, but reward them handsomely. It'll never work. We have to think of something new. Sadly, it's probably too late. We've predicted it for thousands of years and seen it happen countless times without changing our ways. Why now? Following the rules is a disadvantage. Integrity is an evolutionarily disadvantageous trait. Honesty is the worst policy. Ulterior motives. Plotting. Conniving. Betrayal. These will always win the game against someone playing by the rules. Whose rules? I don't know. I don't know what the rules are anymore. I'm going to be good anyway and hope it rights itself. Someone is going to have to clean up all the rubble and feed people and give them shelter. Who is that going to be? Look for the helpers.
DreamScatter 5y ago
Well, I have to disagree. I don't believe your story has anything to do with you being a woman in that situation. There are plenty of male people who also don't have a network and who get taken advantage of and have their ideas stolen without credit. This happens all the time on a daily basis and has absolutely nothing to do with gender. It's a real problem, but in my impression it seems to be a quite standard problem with humanity and not gender.