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Has anyone ever seen a truly smart person struggle? I for one have never. They must either hide it very well, or never really hit those roadblocks that make peo

Has anyone ever seen a truly smart person struggle? I for one have never. They must either hide it very well, or never really hit those roadblocks that make people think themselves, and not the roadblocks, are the problem. What is it?

tjr 18y ago
I once was put on a project with a very senior engineer. He had many more years of general experience than I, but we were both new to the project. I tended to sit around feeling stupid, making feeble attempts to be productive. He, on the other hand, knew how to ask the right questions of the right people and get the information he needed to proceed. He was just as clueless as me on the project, but the difference was he knew how to quickly and easily move from being clueless to being knowledgable.
nostrademons 18y ago
Absolutely. Some have even asked me for help. The difference is in how they ask for help. Folks that are usually thought of as stupid either get flustered and say "I can't do this", or they don't ask for help at all and hope nobody will notice. While the ones we think of as "truly smart" have confidence that they'll get it eventually, they're just missing some crucial piece of information. I suspect this holds true of original research as well, but this is usually done in private, and so nobody sees the smart people struggle.
- whacked_new 18y ago
  I still find this quite hard to grasp. If it's declarative (book) knowledge, then it makes sense to ask immediately. Does that count as struggling? If it is insight though, for even those armed with all the crucial facts, they may still be unable to make certain connections and mental leaps. I guess this is the kind of struggle I'm talking about. Given the same data, two researchers can come up with interpretations of different strength and quality. Across all the brilliant people I have met before, whenever this happens I can only ask "how the hell?" And they would say something like, "oh, it's just this and that." "It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark." -- Kac on Feynman. Is there a similarity? I have to wonder what caused Rock to struggle...
  - DougBTX 18y ago
    It sounds a lot like circular logic. How do you work out whether someone is smart or not? By whether you see them struggle? I can only ask "how the hell?" And they would say something like, "oh, it's just this and that." That could be someone who, once they understand something, can explain it easily. That doesn't (necessarily) mean that they reached the initial understanding easily.
litewulf 18y ago
(well if they are struggling wouldn't you not consider them smart)
- aneesh 18y ago
  That's about the silliest thing I've read. Everyone struggles. The difference with the smart people is how they respond to those struggles.
  - DougBTX 18y ago
    That's about the silliest thing I've read. Parent or grandparent? Re Parent: yep, could well be a form of confirmation bias. "That guy is struggling, must not be smart. I wonder why all the smart people never struggle?"
  - litewulf 18y ago
    I was being facetious. I meant to say what my sibling comment wrote. Confirmation bias.
menloparkbum 18y ago
Has anyone ever seen a truly smart person struggle? Yes. When I was getting a math degree, people who were really good in one area, like analysis, often struggled in another area, like abstract algebra. Likewise, when I lived in Boston I worked with PhDs in microbiology and biochemistry who had a hard time with computer programming.
- whacked_new 18y ago
  I can understand the PhD part: the programming involves a different mindset than bio and chem: "It's more of a craft, than an art" -- a neurobio PhD. To paraphrase, it is more dependent on wisdom than cleverness. The math tidbit is interesting though. What other examples have you seen of good mathematicians being lopsidedly talented in one area? What kinds of areas were these? I can somehow see real analysis involving a different ability than that of discrete math.
  - antiform 18y ago
    Most mathematicians are "lopsidedly talented" in one area, typically that of their Ph.D. You rarely see modern mathematicians who are able to understand--much less make significant contributions to--current research in many different fields.
- antiform 18y ago
  I've noticed this too and tend to agree with your observation, but I don't think this is necessarily because certain people don't get or are not naturally talented in a specific subarea of mathematics. My math professors told me that math majors tend to fall in love with the second upper-division math course that they take, because in the first one, you're still struggling with the details of moving from mostly computational to proof-based problems. Usually this first course is either real analysis or abstract algebra, and since all analysis and algebra classes tend to build on the fundamentals of these courses, this may show up in the subsequent classes that you take within these fields.
aneesh 18y ago
> "They must either hide it very well, or never really hit those roadblocks" To struggle is human. Smart people sometimes try to hide their stuggles. But the truly smart people recognize that struggling is human, and accept it. So you should see them struggle. If you haven't seen them struggle, you aren't looking. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, these guys have all had very public failures. They admit it, learn from it, move on, and are stronger for it.

tjr 18y ago

I once was put on a project with a very senior engineer. He had many more years of general experience than I, but we were both new to the project. I tended to sit around feeling stupid, making feeble attempts to be productive. He, on the other hand, knew how to ask the right questions of the right people and get the information he needed to proceed. He was just as clueless as me on the project, but the difference was he knew how to quickly and easily move from being clueless to being knowledgable.

nostrademons 18y ago

Absolutely. Some have even asked me for help. The difference is in how they ask for help. Folks that are usually thought of as stupid either get flustered and say "I can't do this", or they don't ask for help at all and hope nobody will notice. While the ones we think of as "truly smart" have confidence that they'll get it eventually, they're just missing some crucial piece of information. I suspect this holds true of original research as well, but this is usually done in private, and so nobody sees the smart people struggle.

whacked_new 18y ago
I still find this quite hard to grasp. If it's declarative (book) knowledge, then it makes sense to ask immediately. Does that count as struggling? If it is insight though, for even those armed with all the crucial facts, they may still be unable to make certain connections and mental leaps. I guess this is the kind of struggle I'm talking about. Given the same data, two researchers can come up with interpretations of different strength and quality. Across all the brilliant people I have met before, whenever this happens I can only ask "how the hell?" And they would say something like, "oh, it's just this and that." "It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark." -- Kac on Feynman. Is there a similarity? I have to wonder what caused Rock to struggle...
- DougBTX 18y ago
  It sounds a lot like circular logic. How do you work out whether someone is smart or not? By whether you see them struggle? I can only ask "how the hell?" And they would say something like, "oh, it's just this and that." That could be someone who, once they understand something, can explain it easily. That doesn't (necessarily) mean that they reached the initial understanding easily.

litewulf 18y ago

(well if they are struggling wouldn't you not consider them smart)

aneesh 18y ago
That's about the silliest thing I've read. Everyone struggles. The difference with the smart people is how they respond to those struggles.
- DougBTX 18y ago
  That's about the silliest thing I've read. Parent or grandparent? Re Parent: yep, could well be a form of confirmation bias. "That guy is struggling, must not be smart. I wonder why all the smart people never struggle?"
- litewulf 18y ago
  I was being facetious. I meant to say what my sibling comment wrote. Confirmation bias.

menloparkbum 18y ago

Has anyone ever seen a truly smart person struggle? Yes. When I was getting a math degree, people who were really good in one area, like analysis, often struggled in another area, like abstract algebra. Likewise, when I lived in Boston I worked with PhDs in microbiology and biochemistry who had a hard time with computer programming.

whacked_new 18y ago
I can understand the PhD part: the programming involves a different mindset than bio and chem: "It's more of a craft, than an art" -- a neurobio PhD. To paraphrase, it is more dependent on wisdom than cleverness. The math tidbit is interesting though. What other examples have you seen of good mathematicians being lopsidedly talented in one area? What kinds of areas were these? I can somehow see real analysis involving a different ability than that of discrete math.
- antiform 18y ago
  Most mathematicians are "lopsidedly talented" in one area, typically that of their Ph.D. You rarely see modern mathematicians who are able to understand--much less make significant contributions to--current research in many different fields.
antiform 18y ago
I've noticed this too and tend to agree with your observation, but I don't think this is necessarily because certain people don't get or are not naturally talented in a specific subarea of mathematics. My math professors told me that math majors tend to fall in love with the second upper-division math course that they take, because in the first one, you're still struggling with the details of moving from mostly computational to proof-based problems. Usually this first course is either real analysis or abstract algebra, and since all analysis and algebra classes tend to build on the fundamentals of these courses, this may show up in the subsequent classes that you take within these fields.

aneesh 18y ago

> "They must either hide it very well, or never really hit those roadblocks" To struggle is human. Smart people sometimes try to hide their stuggles. But the truly smart people recognize that struggling is human, and accept it. So you should see them struggle. If you haven't seen them struggle, you aren't looking. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, these guys have all had very public failures. They admit it, learn from it, move on, and are stronger for it.