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x86: 8086 1978 x64: 1999 ARM: 1985 ARM64: 2011 RISC V: 2010 It took x86 about 10 years (1988) to become the most popular, and until 2005 to cause Apple to sw

by mavhc 6y ago

x86: 8086 1978 x64: 1999 ARM: 1985 ARM64: 2011 RISC V: 2010 It took x86 about 10 years (1988) to become the most popular, and until 2005 to cause Apple to switch (another 17 years) It took ARM about 25 years (2010) to become the most popular, and until 2020 to cause Apple to switch (another 10 years)

alanfranz 6y ago
“Switch” to what? Apple is one of the founders of ARM and still holds ARM shares IIRC
- mavhc 6y ago
  They sold their 40% stake in ARM when they were short of cash. Switch from Power PC to Intel, and then from Intel to ARM. I'm using Apple as a tipping point, to when the new architecture was so much better than the old it completely took over. Obviously with 90% of Apple devices being ARM already it was an easier choice for them this time. But as each Architecture gets more power as the market is many times bigger, it may be more difficult for the new entrant. That's why RISC V's win (if it occurs) will be because it's Open Source. Linux won in 30 years against everyone else due to that.
  - klelatti 6y ago
    On the Apple specific case I think any move to RISC V would be because it would want more control than it has with Arm. It could then take the RISC V ISA in the direction it wants. I'm guessing it already has a lot of influence over Arm though and there are other factors that strongly act in favour of staying with Arm. If Nvidia takes over Arm though and starts making life difficult for the ecosystem then that could change ....
    - mrweasel 6y ago
      Apple is really interesting, with chip design being moved inhouse and the ease of which they seem to switch architecture they could move away from ARM if the Nvidia purchase happens. I think they’d want to avoid it, at least for the next 10 years. It would be interesting to know how important the ARM instruction set is to Apple.
      - zepto 6y ago
        > they could move away from ARM if the Nvidia purchase happens. The Nvidia purchase is irrelevant to Apple. They have a license that won’t be impacted. The only thing that would make them move away would be a performance bottleneck in the architecture that necessitates a shift.
        klelatti 6y ago
        > Still leaves Apple open to potential Nvidia's changes to the ISA's direction (and the ISA won't stand still). I assume a full fork of the ISA isn't on the cards even for Apple.
        zepto 6y ago
        > I assume a full fork of the ISA isn't on the cards even for Apple. Why do you assume this?
        klelatti 6y ago
        If you've seen their license then happy to be corrected but typically an architecture license wouldn't permit them to do precisely what they want with the ISA with no restrictions whatsoever.
        zepto 6y ago
        I haven’t seen their license but they founded ARM and even though they don’t retain any ownership of the business I have heard that they retain a license that allows them to do pretty much whatever they like with the architecture in their own products.
      - kube-system 6y ago
        Given Apple's history, and their business style, I don't think they have loyalty to any architecture or any specific technology in particular. They're care about product first, and choose whatever technology they need to choose to get there. https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=113 https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=113
  - cestith 6y ago
    Apple switched from Motorola 68k to PowerPC, too, and Sun switched from 68k to SPARC. The Amiga, NeXT, early Palm devices, and the ST were also using members of the 68k family. That's an ISA born in 1979 and largely replacing (and inspired by) the 6800 (1974) which had a 16-bit address bus and 8-bit memory bus and its (binary incompatible but with the same assembly language) little brother the 6809 (1978). The Tandy Color Computer and the Dragon were notable 6809 systems. That, of course, is just with the Mac since Apple previously used variants of the MOS 6502 (1975 and allegedly an illicit clone of the MC6800). Apple, Atari, Acorn, Commodore (the owner of MOS for several years), BBC, Oric, and Nintendo used it in multiple systems each. Apple, Acorn, and Nintendo built additional systems on its updated sibling the WDC65816 series (1983). The the 6800/6809/Hitachi 6300/68k/Dragonball/Coldfire dynasty and the bastard MOS6502/WDC65816 families were collectively basically the ARM of their day in a way. Everyone targeting low priced or power-sipping was building platforms around them at one time or another. Acorn went from a customer to a major competitor and successor. It should be noted that the PowerPC and the whole POWER ISA multi-platform family was largely inspired by Apple in the first place. They were talking to IBM about a new platform and invited Motorola to the talks as their long-time processor provider. They formed the "AIM Alliance" that eventually morphed into the POWER Foundation and OpenPOWER initiatives. I can't really speak to how much of POWER ISA is inspired by Motorola's own "RISC" processor, the 88000 series.
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Apple has been using ARM on and off since 1993. They have more long term organizational experience with ARM than they did with x86. The Newton, then the iPod, then the iPhone, and now the M1. The iPhone is a more important device for Apple than the Mac from a revenue point of view, and they've sold more devices with ARM chips in them than they have 68k, PowerPC, or x86. They've sold 2.2 billion iPhones. I can't find an easy number on how many Macintoshes they've sold totally, but I can't imagine it's close to that. In fact, they used ARM in the Newton (1993) before they used PowerPC in the Power Mac (1994).

by mavhc 6y ago

alanfranz 6y ago

“Switch” to what? Apple is one of the founders of ARM and still holds ARM shares IIRC

mavhc 6y ago
They sold their 40% stake in ARM when they were short of cash. Switch from Power PC to Intel, and then from Intel to ARM. I'm using Apple as a tipping point, to when the new architecture was so much better than the old it completely took over. Obviously with 90% of Apple devices being ARM already it was an easier choice for them this time. But as each Architecture gets more power as the market is many times bigger, it may be more difficult for the new entrant. That's why RISC V's win (if it occurs) will be because it's Open Source. Linux won in 30 years against everyone else due to that.
- klelatti 6y ago
  On the Apple specific case I think any move to RISC V would be because it would want more control than it has with Arm. It could then take the RISC V ISA in the direction it wants. I'm guessing it already has a lot of influence over Arm though and there are other factors that strongly act in favour of staying with Arm. If Nvidia takes over Arm though and starts making life difficult for the ecosystem then that could change ....
  - mrweasel 6y ago
    Apple is really interesting, with chip design being moved inhouse and the ease of which they seem to switch architecture they could move away from ARM if the Nvidia purchase happens. I think they’d want to avoid it, at least for the next 10 years. It would be interesting to know how important the ARM instruction set is to Apple.
    - zepto 6y ago
      > they could move away from ARM if the Nvidia purchase happens. The Nvidia purchase is irrelevant to Apple. They have a license that won’t be impacted. The only thing that would make them move away would be a performance bottleneck in the architecture that necessitates a shift.
      - klelatti 6y ago
        > Still leaves Apple open to potential Nvidia's changes to the ISA's direction (and the ISA won't stand still). I assume a full fork of the ISA isn't on the cards even for Apple.
        zepto 6y ago
        > I assume a full fork of the ISA isn't on the cards even for Apple. Why do you assume this?
        klelatti 6y ago
        If you've seen their license then happy to be corrected but typically an architecture license wouldn't permit them to do precisely what they want with the ISA with no restrictions whatsoever.
        zepto 6y ago
        I haven’t seen their license but they founded ARM and even though they don’t retain any ownership of the business I have heard that they retain a license that allows them to do pretty much whatever they like with the architecture in their own products.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Given Apple's history, and their business style, I don't think they have loyalty to any architecture or any specific technology in particular. They're care about product first, and choose whatever technology they need to choose to get there. https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=113 https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=113
- cestith 6y ago
  Apple switched from Motorola 68k to PowerPC, too, and Sun switched from 68k to SPARC. The Amiga, NeXT, early Palm devices, and the ST were also using members of the 68k family. That's an ISA born in 1979 and largely replacing (and inspired by) the 6800 (1974) which had a 16-bit address bus and 8-bit memory bus and its (binary incompatible but with the same assembly language) little brother the 6809 (1978). The Tandy Color Computer and the Dragon were notable 6809 systems. That, of course, is just with the Mac since Apple previously used variants of the MOS 6502 (1975 and allegedly an illicit clone of the MC6800). Apple, Atari, Acorn, Commodore (the owner of MOS for several years), BBC, Oric, and Nintendo used it in multiple systems each. Apple, Acorn, and Nintendo built additional systems on its updated sibling the WDC65816 series (1983). The the 6800/6809/Hitachi 6300/68k/Dragonball/Coldfire dynasty and the bastard MOS6502/WDC65816 families were collectively basically the ARM of their day in a way. Everyone targeting low priced or power-sipping was building platforms around them at one time or another. Acorn went from a customer to a major competitor and successor. It should be noted that the PowerPC and the whole POWER ISA multi-platform family was largely inspired by Apple in the first place. They were talking to IBM about a new platform and invited Motorola to the talks as their long-time processor provider. They formed the "AIM Alliance" that eventually morphed into the POWER Foundation and OpenPOWER initiatives. I can't really speak to how much of POWER ISA is inspired by Motorola's own "RISC" processor, the 88000 series.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

Apple has been using ARM on and off since 1993. They have more long term organizational experience with ARM than they did with x86. The Newton, then the iPod, then the iPhone, and now the M1. The iPhone is a more important device for Apple than the Mac from a revenue point of view, and they've sold more devices with ARM chips in them than they have 68k, PowerPC, or x86. They've sold 2.2 billion iPhones. I can't find an easy number on how many Macintoshes they've sold totally, but I can't imagine it's close to that. In fact, they used ARM in the Newton (1993) before they used PowerPC in the Power Mac (1994).