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>"The much-vaunted philosophical aspects basically rise to naming some characters & bosses after famous philosophers, and basically nothing else." Replying to

by M277 5y ago

>"The much-vaunted philosophical aspects basically rise to naming some characters & bosses after famous philosophers, and basically nothing else." Replying to this is tricky without spoilers, but I genuinely don't understand how you came to this conclusion. Did you really not find anything about the Android's lives to be even remotely philosophical? Or even the multiple playthrough aspect that you hated, what do you think is its point? Honestly, the impression I get is that you didn't really give the game a proper chance, wrote it off early on and played it while you had written it off. It's not for everyone, but your comment is too harsh.

rjzzleep 5y ago
I do agree that the whole concept of the story and history is deeply philosophical and in fact apparently NieR:Automata and even NieR:Replicant are only a fraction of the whole story. BUT calling the gameplay boring with lots of running around is a fair statement. NieR:Replicant is worse. And reading through what others have said/shown about previous games in the series is that they're even worse. The gameplay looks beautiful, but it grows only very little at the beginning of the game. After that nothing changes, there is no complexity to it. If you wanted to, you could get by with circling around enemies and pressing two buttons.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- GrumpyYoungMan 5y ago
  > "BUT calling the gameplay boring with lots of running around is a fair statement. NieR:Replicant is worse." Both Niers are RPGs after all, in terms of mechanics, and traditional RPGs are even duller (attack/defend/item/flee menu choices) but still manage to be enjoyable. From that standpoint, the bullet sponge nature of the enemies, being unable to defeat them until the player characters have leveled up enough, and backtracking is understandable. Personally, I found the combat adequate (yes, even Nier:Gestalt) and sufficiently varied to keep things interesting.
  - BlueTemplar 5y ago
    Hmm, isn't Baldur's Gate (2) considered to be a "traditional RPG" any more ?
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    Don't get me wrong. It's a beautiful game, but I guess I have a completely different understanding of RPGs. Leveling up building up different skills, magic, builds, etc. that are actually necessary to be able to advance to the next stage of the game is my understanding. In the case of NieR you can play through the entire game start to finish with your initial weapon set and drone and it would be fine. And yes, you still assume a characters narrative in this case and you still have to level. Technically yes it is, but then again, I guess our understanding of what used to be RPGs has changed massively over the recent past I would say. EDIT: Just googling around a bit it seems like the correct definition seems to be open world action adventure with RPG elements.
- M277 5y ago
  Yeah, the combat / gameplay is quite dull (which is a shame because there's a great variety of combos with great animations[1], you're just not incentivised to use them at all), this is something that I agree with. I was only addressing the original comment's final remark. [1]: https://youtu.be/QAU_8GEgSwI https://youtu.be/QAU_8GEgSwI This has all of 2B's moveset and all combos with different weapon sets.
  - eska 5y ago
    I'll never understand how game artists put such immense effort and detail into hardly visible in-between frame details, while putting zero effort into 80% of the time visible base animations. They don't even bother to attach weapons to the character properly (huge sword hovering 20cm away from the back). The transition from slow walking to an intense dash is also hysterical
    - Jochim 5y ago
      Aren't both of these examples just stylistic though? The swords sort of materialise in a "digital" manner that I feel helps to convey that the androids aren't humans. It also enables a lot of the flashy moves that involve attacking with the weapon while not touching it. Lengthy transition animations can make movement more realistic but it also can degrade gameplay by making the characters feel slow or clunky when responding to input. This works well for games like gears of war or where the character's motion should obviously be restricted but not so well when the combat is meant to feel fast paced and fluid.
wk_end 5y ago
It's philosophical in roughly the same way The Matrix is - whereas that was "Plato's Cave as a sci-fi action movie", NieR is "Existentialism 101 as a sci-fi video game". I liked it a lot more than GP did but if you don't have a high tolerance for anime BS (e.g. can you deal with the fact that the protagonist is a sexy lady robot samurai in a skimpy maid outfit?) or have actually spent any serious time reading philosophy, the anime BS is going to overwhelm and/or the philosophical themes are going to underwhelm.
inopinatus 5y ago
Some people demand to be spoonfed their philosophy, do not appreciate being asked to dream it. There was a similar reaction from Europeans confronted with east asian philosophies in previous centuries. The question is, whether to be Leo or H.H., that’s all.
ahelwer 5y ago
Looking at my steam profile, I spent 38 hours playing this game. I did many sidequests. There's this weird compulsion among fans to say "you didn't give it a chance", which pushes people to do the other playthroughs, but I spent thirty-eight good-faith hours with this game. There are themes of how people go through inescapable self-destructive cycles of hurting each other or whatever. Let's talk spoilers past this point, then - what are the deeply philosophical themes of this game in your estimation?
- fpgaminer 5y ago
  SPOILERS: Not the person you're replying to, but > what are the deeply philosophical themes of this game in your estimation? Pascal's story is perhaps the most succinct microcosm of Automata's themes. Pascal starts a village of peaceful machines disconnected from the network. They're trying to start a new life. There's hope of a future without violence; of growth and evolution for the machines instead of an endless cycle of death. But then the cataclysmic events of Automata occur and the machines, fearing a painful, tortured death at the hands of the networked machines, choose to take their own lives. Pascal had taught these machines fear. He(/She/They) is torn by feeling responsible for their deaths, because he is the one that taught them to fear. It is all his fault. He asks you to wipe his memory. He can't bare to live with the pain of knowing what he's done. It's not known how much time has passed between the end of mankind and the events of Automata. It's not known how many times Pascal has started a village, taught his machines fear, watched his children kill themselves, and repeat the cycle. Just like all the other colonies of machines: endlessly repeating a cycle of hope and death. But as the player, you get to choose NOT to wipe Pascal's memory. To let him live on, despite the pain. Through the seemingly endless cycles of pain and death you can choose hope. Hope that maybe, somehow, one day the cycle will break. You choose to push on despite it all. Just like the ending credits. You, the player, have repeated the game OVER and OVER again. The same gameplay. The same story. Repeated endlessly. Not just by you. But by the machines and androids through NieR's history. And by all players who play the game. Repeated again and again. But during the credits you FIGHT past that. You push on. Knowing all the pain, all the characters you've had to watch die repeatedly, all of Yoko Taro's torturous gameplay you've had to suffer through. You, the player, choose to push forward. You hope that by continuing, the cycle will end and you can find a GOOD ending for these characters you care about. The philosophical implications of all this is that NieR: Automata's endless cycles of pain, death, and hope are reflections of human life. Your life isn't unique. Billions of humans, just like you, have come before you, lived their lives of happiness, sadness, pain, hope, and death. Again, and again, and again. To what end? What is the point? Why live on watching all that you love and care for die? And why live on knowing that you, too, will die and others will repeat your cycles? Because by pushing forward despite the pain, despite how many cycles may have come before you and may repeat after, you CHOOSE to continue. You hope that one day, the cycle will break. Things will get better. Knowing everything you choose to fight. As the lyrics of one of the first songs in Automata state so clearly, "This cannot continue. This cannot continue. This cannot continue." > There are themes of how people go through inescapable self-destructive cycles of hurting each other or whatever. So yeah, that's the point. The game is filled with cycles of inescapable death and hurt. 2B cries when she kills 9S, because she's had to do it SO MANY TIMES. It's her fate to continue the cycle of killing 9S. But that's not the point of NieR, and why the last act of Automata is so important. You the player have to suffer through those endless cycles, and repeat the same gameplay, to put you in that frame of mind. So that at the end you can choose to CONTINUE despite it all. You the player don't know that the last ending is hopeful. You're choosing, even though you think the game is all about inescapable self-destruction, because you HOPE for something better. Hope is the overarching theme of Automata. Perseverance in the face of seemingly endless cycles. (And yes, I've repeated my point a number of times, as a reflect of the theme of repetition in Automata :P) There are many other little philosophical ideas scattered throughout Automata. But the above is the main one (in my mind).
NikolaeVarius 5y ago
Its bog standard existentialism.
vmception 5y ago
OH MY GOD THE ROBOTS THINK THEY ARE HUMAN AND LOOSELY EMULATE EMOTIONS WHAAAAT That's not a spoiler that's a really common trope If you want that, play the much more beautifully rendered Detroit: Become Human, the "spoiler" is in the title There is nothing deep about Nier Automata, there are no shocking revelations The only reason you play this trope is to get a feel for "how" or "when", which this game will pretty much never really get to or explore, just pile on fetch quests and edgelord nihilism appealing to 14 year olds Seriously, if I was 14 I would have really been into this. But I'm not, and I'm not into this.

by M277 5y ago

rjzzleep 5y ago

I do agree that the whole concept of the story and history is deeply philosophical and in fact apparently NieR:Automata and even NieR:Replicant are only a fraction of the whole story. BUT calling the gameplay boring with lots of running around is a fair statement. NieR:Replicant is worse. And reading through what others have said/shown about previous games in the series is that they're even worse. The gameplay looks beautiful, but it grows only very little at the beginning of the game. After that nothing changes, there is no complexity to it. If you wanted to, you could get by with circling around enemies and pressing two buttons.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
GrumpyYoungMan 5y ago
> "BUT calling the gameplay boring with lots of running around is a fair statement. NieR:Replicant is worse." Both Niers are RPGs after all, in terms of mechanics, and traditional RPGs are even duller (attack/defend/item/flee menu choices) but still manage to be enjoyable. From that standpoint, the bullet sponge nature of the enemies, being unable to defeat them until the player characters have leveled up enough, and backtracking is understandable. Personally, I found the combat adequate (yes, even Nier:Gestalt) and sufficiently varied to keep things interesting.
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  Hmm, isn't Baldur's Gate (2) considered to be a "traditional RPG" any more ?
- rjzzleep 5y ago
  Don't get me wrong. It's a beautiful game, but I guess I have a completely different understanding of RPGs. Leveling up building up different skills, magic, builds, etc. that are actually necessary to be able to advance to the next stage of the game is my understanding. In the case of NieR you can play through the entire game start to finish with your initial weapon set and drone and it would be fine. And yes, you still assume a characters narrative in this case and you still have to level. Technically yes it is, but then again, I guess our understanding of what used to be RPGs has changed massively over the recent past I would say. EDIT: Just googling around a bit it seems like the correct definition seems to be open world action adventure with RPG elements.
M277 5y ago
Yeah, the combat / gameplay is quite dull (which is a shame because there's a great variety of combos with great animations[1], you're just not incentivised to use them at all), this is something that I agree with. I was only addressing the original comment's final remark. [1]: https://youtu.be/QAU_8GEgSwI https://youtu.be/QAU_8GEgSwI This has all of 2B's moveset and all combos with different weapon sets.
- eska 5y ago
  I'll never understand how game artists put such immense effort and detail into hardly visible in-between frame details, while putting zero effort into 80% of the time visible base animations. They don't even bother to attach weapons to the character properly (huge sword hovering 20cm away from the back). The transition from slow walking to an intense dash is also hysterical
  - Jochim 5y ago
    Aren't both of these examples just stylistic though? The swords sort of materialise in a "digital" manner that I feel helps to convey that the androids aren't humans. It also enables a lot of the flashy moves that involve attacking with the weapon while not touching it. Lengthy transition animations can make movement more realistic but it also can degrade gameplay by making the characters feel slow or clunky when responding to input. This works well for games like gears of war or where the character's motion should obviously be restricted but not so well when the combat is meant to feel fast paced and fluid.

wk_end 5y ago

It's philosophical in roughly the same way The Matrix is - whereas that was "Plato's Cave as a sci-fi action movie", NieR is "Existentialism 101 as a sci-fi video game". I liked it a lot more than GP did but if you don't have a high tolerance for anime BS (e.g. can you deal with the fact that the protagonist is a sexy lady robot samurai in a skimpy maid outfit?) or have actually spent any serious time reading philosophy, the anime BS is going to overwhelm and/or the philosophical themes are going to underwhelm.

inopinatus 5y ago

Some people demand to be spoonfed their philosophy, do not appreciate being asked to dream it. There was a similar reaction from Europeans confronted with east asian philosophies in previous centuries. The question is, whether to be Leo or H.H., that’s all.

ahelwer 5y ago

Looking at my steam profile, I spent 38 hours playing this game. I did many sidequests. There's this weird compulsion among fans to say "you didn't give it a chance", which pushes people to do the other playthroughs, but I spent thirty-eight good-faith hours with this game. There are themes of how people go through inescapable self-destructive cycles of hurting each other or whatever. Let's talk spoilers past this point, then - what are the deeply philosophical themes of this game in your estimation?

fpgaminer 5y ago
SPOILERS: Not the person you're replying to, but > what are the deeply philosophical themes of this game in your estimation? Pascal's story is perhaps the most succinct microcosm of Automata's themes. Pascal starts a village of peaceful machines disconnected from the network. They're trying to start a new life. There's hope of a future without violence; of growth and evolution for the machines instead of an endless cycle of death. But then the cataclysmic events of Automata occur and the machines, fearing a painful, tortured death at the hands of the networked machines, choose to take their own lives. Pascal had taught these machines fear. He(/She/They) is torn by feeling responsible for their deaths, because he is the one that taught them to fear. It is all his fault. He asks you to wipe his memory. He can't bare to live with the pain of knowing what he's done. It's not known how much time has passed between the end of mankind and the events of Automata. It's not known how many times Pascal has started a village, taught his machines fear, watched his children kill themselves, and repeat the cycle. Just like all the other colonies of machines: endlessly repeating a cycle of hope and death. But as the player, you get to choose NOT to wipe Pascal's memory. To let him live on, despite the pain. Through the seemingly endless cycles of pain and death you can choose hope. Hope that maybe, somehow, one day the cycle will break. You choose to push on despite it all. Just like the ending credits. You, the player, have repeated the game OVER and OVER again. The same gameplay. The same story. Repeated endlessly. Not just by you. But by the machines and androids through NieR's history. And by all players who play the game. Repeated again and again. But during the credits you FIGHT past that. You push on. Knowing all the pain, all the characters you've had to watch die repeatedly, all of Yoko Taro's torturous gameplay you've had to suffer through. You, the player, choose to push forward. You hope that by continuing, the cycle will end and you can find a GOOD ending for these characters you care about. The philosophical implications of all this is that NieR: Automata's endless cycles of pain, death, and hope are reflections of human life. Your life isn't unique. Billions of humans, just like you, have come before you, lived their lives of happiness, sadness, pain, hope, and death. Again, and again, and again. To what end? What is the point? Why live on watching all that you love and care for die? And why live on knowing that you, too, will die and others will repeat your cycles? Because by pushing forward despite the pain, despite how many cycles may have come before you and may repeat after, you CHOOSE to continue. You hope that one day, the cycle will break. Things will get better. Knowing everything you choose to fight. As the lyrics of one of the first songs in Automata state so clearly, "This cannot continue. This cannot continue. This cannot continue." > There are themes of how people go through inescapable self-destructive cycles of hurting each other or whatever. So yeah, that's the point. The game is filled with cycles of inescapable death and hurt. 2B cries when she kills 9S, because she's had to do it SO MANY TIMES. It's her fate to continue the cycle of killing 9S. But that's not the point of NieR, and why the last act of Automata is so important. You the player have to suffer through those endless cycles, and repeat the same gameplay, to put you in that frame of mind. So that at the end you can choose to CONTINUE despite it all. You the player don't know that the last ending is hopeful. You're choosing, even though you think the game is all about inescapable self-destruction, because you HOPE for something better. Hope is the overarching theme of Automata. Perseverance in the face of seemingly endless cycles. (And yes, I've repeated my point a number of times, as a reflect of the theme of repetition in Automata :P) There are many other little philosophical ideas scattered throughout Automata. But the above is the main one (in my mind).

NikolaeVarius 5y ago

Its bog standard existentialism.

vmception 5y ago

OH MY GOD THE ROBOTS THINK THEY ARE HUMAN AND LOOSELY EMULATE EMOTIONS WHAAAAT That's not a spoiler that's a really common trope If you want that, play the much more beautifully rendered Detroit: Become Human, the "spoiler" is in the title There is nothing deep about Nier Automata, there are no shocking revelations The only reason you play this trope is to get a feel for "how" or "when", which this game will pretty much never really get to or explore, just pile on fetch quests and edgelord nihilism appealing to 14 year olds Seriously, if I was 14 I would have really been into this. But I'm not, and I'm not into this.