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>I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but w

>I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. Learning this history is the first step of "doing something about it". Brown/black people should know their history too, we can't just paper over the historic criminality of certain groups of people because it feels uncomfortable or somehow may make people unpatriotic. Everyone has a right to their history and black/brown people have been denied it in certain parts of the world, thanks in many cases to censorship and/or propaganda sucking the air out of the room. I do find it interesting when new immigrants come to the US and "model-minority-explain" to the people (African Americans and others) that built this country for free and are actually the only reason non-white immigrants are even allowed into the country, that they should just move on or not pursue a better understanding of the history it was illegal for them to learn. Sucking up to the majority for better standing at the expense of the purposely created minority underclass is a huge disservice to the people of this country/planet.

kian 5y ago
The first step to doing something about it is actually believing you're capable of it. I believe what the person you are responding to is trying to get across is that if we first focused on the achievements of a people, then when they later learn of the hardships endured, they will have a belief in themselves that they have the power to change it. And as importantly, that doing things in the other direction may have the effect of blunting that. Which, given that it's pushed so strongly, and mostly by upper class whites, is starting to feel like the point.
- bingbong70 5y ago
  Do Jewish parents "save their children" from history lessons and postpone them? When is the holocaust and other info about historic anti-semitism introduced? I would be surprised to hear that they delay this, I believe some of these historical stories/events are part of their religious studies as children. Giving the oppressive system a pass for X number of years and letting children walk through society ignorant of the threats they face is an even bigger disservice that any demoralization that may or may not occur in my opinion. Black children literally get murdered by the state for benign activity, I think by 13 (the age Tamir Rice was murdered) they are old enough to start learning why.
  - kian 5y ago
    We are not saying to "postpone" history lessons, but to contextualize them with other historical facts that are more important. While the holocaust is extremely important, I believe that a celebration of their shared culture, including the Torah, occurs first in Jewish homes, as the accumulated wisdom, the greatest and longest-lasting achievement of the Jewish faith and peoples. Likewise, in a documentary series on any given people, perhaps episode two could focus on the difficulties, after episode one contextualized them with their successes? I don't believe anyone suggested hiding or otherwise not sharing the history of oppression of any people in this comment thread. I recommend that you look back through and consider why you came away with a different impression.
    - bingbong70 5y ago
      >We are not saying to "postpone" history lessons, but to contextualize them with other historical facts that are more important. Please give me some examples of these "facts that are more important" where racism and WS are concerned. >I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. That final qualifier is the red flag to me, nobody teaches that "they can't do anything about it" (stating that seems purposely dishonest), the goal of these teachings is in large part about changing/fixing systems through awareness. Side note: This history is also for white children who in many cases are negatively affected by these systems in non-obvious ways and are an important population to inform as they are potential future participants in the correction. My intuition tells me when important and uncomfortable historical facts come up and certain people bend over backwards to make you look away, the goal is to distract, hide, and obfuscate.
rayiner 5y ago
The job of education is to maximize the potential of my kid, not to use my kid as a vehicle to fix society’s problems. As to your claim of immigrants “sucking up”—if I wanted to suck up to elite whites I’d embrace teaching kids of color about “white supremacy.” If I didn’t think it would hurt my kid I would have no incentivize to oppose it.
- bingbong70 5y ago
  >if I wanted to suck up to elite whites I’d embrace teaching kids of color about “white supremacy.” I completely disagree. White supremacist systems have operated across the globe for a few centuries now, the actual white elites/beneficiaries (not just the group I suspect you dislike), the British Royal family for example, hate the idea of history like the 1619 project being spread to the masses because the affected may find the common thread that weaves through their histories. WS thrives on ignorance and inaction. When 90% of the planet has a common understanding of white supremacist systems and the vulnerabilities, the fragility of these systems is exposed and the foundation starts to crumble with minor shifts in behavior (especially economic) at the individual level on a mass scale. TLDR Anyone arguing for less exposure of WS history and the history of racism in general is very suspect.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    The 1619 project is a leftist hit piece full of factual inaccuracies. It’s article on capitalism was so egregious that even Jacobin was forced to correct it: https://jacobinmag.com/2019/08/how-slavery-shaped-american-capitalism https://jacobinmag.com/2019/08/how-slavery-shaped-american-c... So did WSWS: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/09/06/1619-s06.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/09/06/1619-s06.html When even self-avowed socialists have to distance themselves from a putatively Marxist attack on American capitalism, that tells you something. The idea that teaching kids flawed history will bring about some utopian future is suspect. I would deem it none of my business, but as you note, people are now trying to draw Asians into the same retrospective thinking. They talk about how the British stole $42 trillion from India. How does that help? The British are never going to be able to give back that money—they can’t afford to. Agitating and waiting for some utopian future to come about is just a recipe for countries like India to stay poor. I’m not interested in that.

kian 5y ago

The first step to doing something about it is actually believing you're capable of it. I believe what the person you are responding to is trying to get across is that if we first focused on the achievements of a people, then when they later learn of the hardships endured, they will have a belief in themselves that they have the power to change it. And as importantly, that doing things in the other direction may have the effect of blunting that. Which, given that it's pushed so strongly, and mostly by upper class whites, is starting to feel like the point.

bingbong70 5y ago
Do Jewish parents "save their children" from history lessons and postpone them? When is the holocaust and other info about historic anti-semitism introduced? I would be surprised to hear that they delay this, I believe some of these historical stories/events are part of their religious studies as children. Giving the oppressive system a pass for X number of years and letting children walk through society ignorant of the threats they face is an even bigger disservice that any demoralization that may or may not occur in my opinion. Black children literally get murdered by the state for benign activity, I think by 13 (the age Tamir Rice was murdered) they are old enough to start learning why.
- kian 5y ago
  We are not saying to "postpone" history lessons, but to contextualize them with other historical facts that are more important. While the holocaust is extremely important, I believe that a celebration of their shared culture, including the Torah, occurs first in Jewish homes, as the accumulated wisdom, the greatest and longest-lasting achievement of the Jewish faith and peoples. Likewise, in a documentary series on any given people, perhaps episode two could focus on the difficulties, after episode one contextualized them with their successes? I don't believe anyone suggested hiding or otherwise not sharing the history of oppression of any people in this comment thread. I recommend that you look back through and consider why you came away with a different impression.
  - bingbong70 5y ago
    >We are not saying to "postpone" history lessons, but to contextualize them with other historical facts that are more important. Please give me some examples of these "facts that are more important" where racism and WS are concerned. >I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. That final qualifier is the red flag to me, nobody teaches that "they can't do anything about it" (stating that seems purposely dishonest), the goal of these teachings is in large part about changing/fixing systems through awareness. Side note: This history is also for white children who in many cases are negatively affected by these systems in non-obvious ways and are an important population to inform as they are potential future participants in the correction. My intuition tells me when important and uncomfortable historical facts come up and certain people bend over backwards to make you look away, the goal is to distract, hide, and obfuscate.

rayiner 5y ago

The job of education is to maximize the potential of my kid, not to use my kid as a vehicle to fix society’s problems. As to your claim of immigrants “sucking up”—if I wanted to suck up to elite whites I’d embrace teaching kids of color about “white supremacy.” If I didn’t think it would hurt my kid I would have no incentivize to oppose it.

bingbong70 5y ago
>if I wanted to suck up to elite whites I’d embrace teaching kids of color about “white supremacy.” I completely disagree. White supremacist systems have operated across the globe for a few centuries now, the actual white elites/beneficiaries (not just the group I suspect you dislike), the British Royal family for example, hate the idea of history like the 1619 project being spread to the masses because the affected may find the common thread that weaves through their histories. WS thrives on ignorance and inaction. When 90% of the planet has a common understanding of white supremacist systems and the vulnerabilities, the fragility of these systems is exposed and the foundation starts to crumble with minor shifts in behavior (especially economic) at the individual level on a mass scale. TLDR Anyone arguing for less exposure of WS history and the history of racism in general is very suspect.
- rayiner 5y ago
  The 1619 project is a leftist hit piece full of factual inaccuracies. It’s article on capitalism was so egregious that even Jacobin was forced to correct it: https://jacobinmag.com/2019/08/how-slavery-shaped-american-capitalism https://jacobinmag.com/2019/08/how-slavery-shaped-american-c... So did WSWS: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/09/06/1619-s06.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/09/06/1619-s06.html When even self-avowed socialists have to distance themselves from a putatively Marxist attack on American capitalism, that tells you something. The idea that teaching kids flawed history will bring about some utopian future is suspect. I would deem it none of my business, but as you note, people are now trying to draw Asians into the same retrospective thinking. They talk about how the British stole $42 trillion from India. How does that help? The British are never going to be able to give back that money—they can’t afford to. Agitating and waiting for some utopian future to come about is just a recipe for countries like India to stay poor. I’m not interested in that.