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How about the west being founded on slavery, and genocides while sustaining racism and misogyny for hundreds of years. I hear a lot of "head in the sand" think

• 4gotunameagain 5y ago
  That's the history of humanity, not only of the west.
  • Klinky 5y ago
    Not exactly, if you want to narrow it down to North American history, compared to some other countries, NA was rather slow at coming to terms with these issues, and compromises were made over the decades which propped and continued institutionalized racism, bigotry, and misogyny, which have had lasting effects to this day. Also saying it's a universal humanitarian problem doesn't make it "not a problem" or victimless.
    • 4gotunameagain 5y ago
      Of course there will be localized differences, and scale differences in civilizations that scaled more. Also, realizing that it is a universal human problem helps with pointing the finger inwards rather than outwards.
      • Klinky 5y ago
        Inward to whom? Every human? Isn't that just as "vague" and unfair to blame even the slaves for their slavery?
        • reaLg_move_in_3 5y ago
          Blame the slaves themselves? no. But stating the reality that as a human there are other human beings who have things in common with them(skin color, national origin, culture, ethnicity) who also enslave and mistreat other people; helps people see the bigger picture of predatory behavior that were all potentially capable of.
          • Klinky 5y ago
            It's of little help for a victim to know that someone with something in common with them is a victimizer elsewhere in the world.
            • reaLg_move_in_3 5y ago
              A better understanding a human nature and what we're all capable of is certainly useful. Much of philosophy and psychology is devoted to this very idea.
              • reaLg_move_in_3 5y ago
                "The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either — but right through every human heart." Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
                • Klinky 5y ago
                  Okay but states, classes and parties are made up of men, and one individual often has limited impact, while groups can have much larger and longer lasting impact. Typically the best and worst of humanity has been achieved through a collective, and not through the individual alone.
    • reaLg_move_in_3 5y ago
      > NA was rather slow at coming to terms with these issues But so were other parts of the world. Many countries in the Middle East continued to have slavery far beyond North America (Saudi Arabia did not outlaw it until 1962) and the Middle East is certainly culturally and historically very different from NA.
      • Klinky 5y ago
        This was a critique on American Exceptionalism and its failure to actually apply "all men are created equal" in spite of better examples existing in the world. The US still legally allowed segregation into the 60s. So many people rushing to use the "other countries were also horrible as well" defense. That's not really a defense.
        • reaLg_move_in_3 5y ago
          We're pointing out that the problem is not particularly American, this is not a defense. Trying to make America seem worse then most of the world is warping the reality of the problem. Enslavement and mistreatment is a problem that many cultures, countries and creeds have struggled with. Not admitting this and factoring this into your explanations shows some bias against America.
          • Klinky 5y ago
            I am not trying to make it look worse, I am stating that its factual history is very problematic. There were many victims that came out of that history, and still exist to this day. Again, you sound like you're saying "stop picking on America, other people were bad too". That's little comfort to America's victims.
• swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
  Believe it or not, slavery is alive and thriving in today's world. You'll see most of it in developing nations where enforcement is non-existent. Rich nations still occasionally have trafficking busts, but nowhere compared to the scale and industry of some more equatorial countries. It's estimated that there are 38-46 million slaves worldwide. In absolute numbers there are more enslaved people now than there ever has been in the past.
  • Klinky 5y ago
    Is this supposed to excuse the consequences of the past? What is your point exactly? Even much of global human trafficking leads back to forced labor, exploited by major western corporations through obfuscated supply chains.
    • listless 5y ago
      In that case, I certainly hope you don’t own an iPhone, don’t buy things on Amazon and only shop local where you check all the labels for “Made in MY country”. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that there isn’t any moral high ground here.
      • Klinky 5y ago
        I am not perfect, no one is, but it is worse to blindly accept or ignore these problems. It's not about trying to take a moral high ground, it's the acknowledgement of reality. Does an iPhone need/absolutely require slavery or child labor? Does anything?
        • listless 5y ago
          100% agree. And I apologize for insinuating that you were trying to grab the high ground. That was probably a cheap shot. The larger point is that it's easy to judge the past and make sweeping condemnations. I see that in wanting to condemn the West due to it's past. But surely people will condemn us as well for things we know are wrong, but we do anyway. At least I keep doing them. I like my iPhone. I like cheap electronics. I like affordable clothing. And behind all of that is some pretty egregious stuff. Where does that leave me in history?
• strangeattractr 5y ago
  Doesn't it feel somewhat hypocritical to accuse others of having their head in the sand whilst claiming slavery, genocide, racism and misogyny are uniquely western phenomenon? I think the irony of the self-loathing westerner, is that in believing their history is uniquely evil, are practising a sort of white supremacy. Not only in being completely oblivious to the history of other parts of the world. But by believing that only white people are/were so powerful that the evil they wrought could never be replicated by the much less powerful other races.
  • Klinky 5y ago
    No, because "other people did horrible things too" isn't a valid excuse.
    • reaLg_move_in_3 5y ago
      Failing to acknowledge the failures of others and focusing on scapegoating problems onto a specific group(when others are guilty as well) is also not a valid position.
      • Klinky 5y ago
        You're not scapegoating a problem onto a specific group if that specific group actually perpetrated or benefited from the problematic behavior. Again, "other people did bad things" isn't a valid excuse for doing bad things.
• reaLg_move_in_3 5y ago
  > west being founded on slavery The "west" was not founded on slavery, this is incorrect. This is the kind of "woke revisionism" that things like the 1619 tried to push through and were inaccurate. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/24/editorial-1619-project-bad-history-fueled-bad-moti/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/24/editorial-1... https://reason.com/2020/03/06/1619-project-fact-checker-nikole-hannah-jones-leslie-harris/ https://reason.com/2020/03/06/1619-project-fact-checker-niko...
  • Klinky 5y ago
    I don't know if I would consider the early colonies as "the founding" of the modern western powers. If you look at the founding of the USA it absolutely is accurate, many founding fathers were slave owners. Slavery also had influence within Canadian territories until it was outlawed. Both waged genocidal war on First Nations and Native Americans from the beginning. The USA continued to perpetuate slavery and compromise with slavers for decades/centuries to come, after Canada and Britain had long since moved on.