4 ms·

There needs to be nuance for sure. People are still responsible for their own actions and the only way to guarantee you wont succeed is to not try. At the same

There needs to be nuance for sure. People are still responsible for their own actions and the only way to guarantee you wont succeed is to not try. At the same time there is systemic unfairness both in the legacy of racism that has created inequality and in how society operates to this very day and I don't know how you solve those problems if you don't address them. The status quo is not acceptable to myself or a lot of other people

esyir 5y ago
You're missing the point. The current narrative of systemic racism and the victimhood culture it creates isnt helping, it's exacerbating the issues and reinforcing itself. By conditioning people into believing that an outside force is the primary, if not only factor impacting their lack of success, you demotivate them from trying to adjust other factors that could improve their situation. The issue isn't that we address racism, it's that racism has become the end-all rationalisation for any deficiency at the individual level.
- breakyerself 5y ago
  You seem to be missing my point. There ARE systemic disadvantages to being black. I get that you're of the opinion that telling people about racial inequality can demotivate them and make them feel fatalistic about their futures, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment to the degree this is the case and you seem to think there is no room for nuance here. We must stop talking about this immediately. People are too simple to understand that there is still some unfairness that needs to be resolved, but that they should do their best regardless. No we must lie to them and tell them the system is fair and through their ignorance they will magically overcome the disadvantages they face. You seem to think fear of systemic racism is a bigger obstacle to the success of black people than actual systemic racism and I just think that's absurd. Your basic premise that fear of institutional racism can be demotivating is valid and worth consideration. You're elevating it to the root cause of all problems is absurd. A black job applicant will receive half as many callbacks for job interviews compared to an identically qualified white applicant. There are little obstacles like that all over our society. Can they be overcome through tenacity and perseverance? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't work to fix that %#@#? Hell No!
  - esyir 5y ago
    The issue is that it's not framed that way. It's framed as all or nothing, that blacks fail only because of racism. That's my lk entire issue. The message isn'tthat they're disadvantaged, the message is that there is 0 chance. One encourages them to hold out as it gets better, the other for them to give up till it gets better. I'm not calling it the root of all problems either, so please don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying it's not even a solution, it's the opposite, worsening the situation and feeding itself. And to be specific here, I'm referring to the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure.
    - sagichmal 5y ago
      No, it isn't framed as all or nothing. Principally because "the framing" isn't some well-defined objective thing, it's all a matter of perception, which means it's always possible to read whatever narrative you like into the facts. Like this: > the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure. This perception is yours, not the facts on the ground.
- tolbish 5y ago
  Wouldn't it logically follow that issues of systemic racism are a bigger problem than the narrative of systemic racism? Can't that be true without being a brainwashed white guilted liberal?
  - JamesBarney 5y ago
    One problem is the narrative makes it harder to make progress on systemic racism. Outside of very liberal strongholds identity politics can't get passed and they get in the way of any progress you want to actually make at trying to minimize the difference in outcomes between races.
    - tolbish 5y ago
      You are assuming that admitting existence of systemic racism is identity politics.
      - JamesBarney 5y ago
        No I'm not I'm arguing that selling the vast majority of policies and legislation as being about equity is bad politics. People define systemic racism as different outcomes for black people than white people. Basically no one denies that.

esyir 5y ago

You're missing the point. The current narrative of systemic racism and the victimhood culture it creates isnt helping, it's exacerbating the issues and reinforcing itself. By conditioning people into believing that an outside force is the primary, if not only factor impacting their lack of success, you demotivate them from trying to adjust other factors that could improve their situation. The issue isn't that we address racism, it's that racism has become the end-all rationalisation for any deficiency at the individual level.

breakyerself 5y ago
You seem to be missing my point. There ARE systemic disadvantages to being black. I get that you're of the opinion that telling people about racial inequality can demotivate them and make them feel fatalistic about their futures, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment to the degree this is the case and you seem to think there is no room for nuance here. We must stop talking about this immediately. People are too simple to understand that there is still some unfairness that needs to be resolved, but that they should do their best regardless. No we must lie to them and tell them the system is fair and through their ignorance they will magically overcome the disadvantages they face. You seem to think fear of systemic racism is a bigger obstacle to the success of black people than actual systemic racism and I just think that's absurd. Your basic premise that fear of institutional racism can be demotivating is valid and worth consideration. You're elevating it to the root cause of all problems is absurd. A black job applicant will receive half as many callbacks for job interviews compared to an identically qualified white applicant. There are little obstacles like that all over our society. Can they be overcome through tenacity and perseverance? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't work to fix that %#@#? Hell No!
- esyir 5y ago
  The issue is that it's not framed that way. It's framed as all or nothing, that blacks fail only because of racism. That's my lk entire issue. The message isn'tthat they're disadvantaged, the message is that there is 0 chance. One encourages them to hold out as it gets better, the other for them to give up till it gets better. I'm not calling it the root of all problems either, so please don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying it's not even a solution, it's the opposite, worsening the situation and feeding itself. And to be specific here, I'm referring to the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure.
  - sagichmal 5y ago
    No, it isn't framed as all or nothing. Principally because "the framing" isn't some well-defined objective thing, it's all a matter of perception, which means it's always possible to read whatever narrative you like into the facts. Like this: > the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure. This perception is yours, not the facts on the ground.
tolbish 5y ago
Wouldn't it logically follow that issues of systemic racism are a bigger problem than the narrative of systemic racism? Can't that be true without being a brainwashed white guilted liberal?
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  One problem is the narrative makes it harder to make progress on systemic racism. Outside of very liberal strongholds identity politics can't get passed and they get in the way of any progress you want to actually make at trying to minimize the difference in outcomes between races.
  - tolbish 5y ago
    You are assuming that admitting existence of systemic racism is identity politics.
    - JamesBarney 5y ago
      No I'm not I'm arguing that selling the vast majority of policies and legislation as being about equity is bad politics. People define systemic racism as different outcomes for black people than white people. Basically no one denies that.