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>Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work e

>Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic? In the case of that particular individual I'd say it's less laziness and more of systemic racism being deterrent to attempt self-improvement. In the "even if I try, I won't get ahead because these systems will hold me back" sense. The point I was trying to make is that it's a lot easier to point the blame at something than admit to yourself that you suck - even if you're capable. I don't know what your definition of systemic racism is, so I can't make a proper argument for/against it. In any case, your comment has given me some food for thought in how I approach this person.

breakyerself 5y ago
There is something to be said about demotivation and dispair. As someone who also spends a lot of time thinking about global warming there is a tendency to have bouts of feeling doomed here and there. It's not unjustified, but it also does no good. We need the information so we can solve the problem. We just need to learn to process it in a healthy way. I would just say that anyone who claims they won't get ahead even if they try because of systemic racism is being ignorant. They might have to try harder than a white person would. They might face some adversity, but there really is no excuse for not trying. It would literally perpetuate the problem.
- tnzm 5y ago
  >I would just say that anyone who claims they won't get ahead even if they try because of systemic racism is being ignorant. They might have to try harder than a white person would. They might face some adversity, but there really is no excuse for not trying. It would literally perpetuate the problem. Not only does systemic racism exist, not only has the environment succeeded in inducing a victim mentality in this person, you are now blaming them for it? Classical "pull yourself by your bootstraps" bullshit. Do you really not see how dehumanizing your viewpoint is, and how such attitudes help perpetuate that person's inaction? >As someone who also spends a lot of time thinking about global warming there is a tendency to have bouts of feeling doomed here and there. Not to belittle your own existential fears, but feeling doomed due to global warming at least doesn't make you feel like there's something wrong with you in particular. It's strange - people with a victim mentality are victims of their victim mentality. It's recursive and self-fulfilling, and it does take some amount of bootstrapping - which is, however, perfectly impossible in the absence of a bootloader and someone to push the power button.
  - breakyerself 5y ago
    It's true that if a black person gives up without trying because they assume they can't succeed then their failure contributes to the inequality between the races. I'm sure I could have put it better. I was most concerned about pushing back on the notion that this subject should be taboo because somehow discussing systemic racism is the real cause of inequality.
    - tnzm 5y ago
      >It's true that if a black person gives up without trying because they assume they can't succeed then their failure contributes to the inequality between the races. Not really my point. But what you're saying is legitimate too. Though who are we to judge, considering we don't even have unambiguous language to discuss the subject without risking to offend each other's sensibilities. >I was most concerned about pushing back on the notion that this subject should be taboo because somehow discussing systemic racism is the real cause of inequality. I'm not sure if I can resolve the nesting of those clauses. IMHO, taboos are generally counterproductive because avoiding the taboo gives it more power. And enforcing a particular language, tone, or other mode of discourse about race relations can be used to perpetuate thinking that reinforces racism "in the name of fighting racism". This whole thing is starting to look more and more like we need to find out if we're even capable of discussing systemic racism without freaking out, so we can try to conclusively establish what systemic racism is, so that we can look for a solution to systemic racism, so that we can finally stop cops from shooting civilians for being the "wrong" color. This yak shaving is truly the work of a higher intellect...

breakyerself 5y ago

There is something to be said about demotivation and dispair. As someone who also spends a lot of time thinking about global warming there is a tendency to have bouts of feeling doomed here and there. It's not unjustified, but it also does no good. We need the information so we can solve the problem. We just need to learn to process it in a healthy way. I would just say that anyone who claims they won't get ahead even if they try because of systemic racism is being ignorant. They might have to try harder than a white person would. They might face some adversity, but there really is no excuse for not trying. It would literally perpetuate the problem.

tnzm 5y ago
>I would just say that anyone who claims they won't get ahead even if they try because of systemic racism is being ignorant. They might have to try harder than a white person would. They might face some adversity, but there really is no excuse for not trying. It would literally perpetuate the problem. Not only does systemic racism exist, not only has the environment succeeded in inducing a victim mentality in this person, you are now blaming them for it? Classical "pull yourself by your bootstraps" bullshit. Do you really not see how dehumanizing your viewpoint is, and how such attitudes help perpetuate that person's inaction? >As someone who also spends a lot of time thinking about global warming there is a tendency to have bouts of feeling doomed here and there. Not to belittle your own existential fears, but feeling doomed due to global warming at least doesn't make you feel like there's something wrong with you in particular. It's strange - people with a victim mentality are victims of their victim mentality. It's recursive and self-fulfilling, and it does take some amount of bootstrapping - which is, however, perfectly impossible in the absence of a bootloader and someone to push the power button.
- breakyerself 5y ago
  It's true that if a black person gives up without trying because they assume they can't succeed then their failure contributes to the inequality between the races. I'm sure I could have put it better. I was most concerned about pushing back on the notion that this subject should be taboo because somehow discussing systemic racism is the real cause of inequality.
  - tnzm 5y ago
    >It's true that if a black person gives up without trying because they assume they can't succeed then their failure contributes to the inequality between the races. Not really my point. But what you're saying is legitimate too. Though who are we to judge, considering we don't even have unambiguous language to discuss the subject without risking to offend each other's sensibilities. >I was most concerned about pushing back on the notion that this subject should be taboo because somehow discussing systemic racism is the real cause of inequality. I'm not sure if I can resolve the nesting of those clauses. IMHO, taboos are generally counterproductive because avoiding the taboo gives it more power. And enforcing a particular language, tone, or other mode of discourse about race relations can be used to perpetuate thinking that reinforces racism "in the name of fighting racism". This whole thing is starting to look more and more like we need to find out if we're even capable of discussing systemic racism without freaking out, so we can try to conclusively establish what systemic racism is, so that we can look for a solution to systemic racism, so that we can finally stop cops from shooting civilians for being the "wrong" color. This yak shaving is truly the work of a higher intellect...