7 ms·

College admissions in the US are messed up. There is no way for a student to be in control of their destiny through hard work, because there are far too many va

College admissions in the US are messed up. There is no way for a student to be in control of their destiny through hard work, because there are far too many variables and randomness in college admissions. Ideally what colleges should do is to use a standardized test and go strictly by the results of the standardized test. Standardized tests are not perfect, but if there are flaws in standardized tests then fix them, because it is better than the alternatives. The advantage for students would be predictability and being in control of their own destiny. Students would not have to apply to 12 to 15 colleges, instead the would apply to 2 to 3. The benefits for colleges would be better predictability as well. Today colleges use complex mathematical models to predict who is likely to accept their admission offers. Then they use "yield protection" to avoid admitting highly qualified students who are unlikely to accept admission offers. It is complicated. Colleges can use complex data analysis to guess which students are likely to accept but hapless students can’t run data analysis to determine which colleges are likely to accept. Colleges, especially public ones, ought to minimize the guesswork and use more objective criteria to admit students. Students need to be able to control their own destiny through hard work. That’s only possible if guesswork and data analytics and so on is minimized. Other countries such as UK use test scores for college admissions. At one time the US too used scores. But US colleges introduced subjective criteria ("holistic reviews") because far too many Jewish people were getting admitted when they used objective criteria. (Not kidding, see https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/history-privilege-elite-college-admissions/585088/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/histor... ). Even public universities perform complex gymnastics to decide which 4.0 GPA student to admit. Even when two students have taken the exact same courses (including AP courses) and have the same GPA, colleges do not consider them the same. (See here https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-12/covid-college-admissions-season-brings-rejection-heartbreak https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-12/covid-co... )

phobosanomaly 5y ago
That really depends on what you mean by 'destiny.' If you go to community college, work hard, and get decent grades you are more-or-less guaranteed a transfer spot at a good state school. It's actually pretty easy to transfer from a California community college right into UCSD, UCLA, UCR, etc., and these are all excellent, affordable schools. Nowhere in that process do you have to take the SAT or the ACT. You just take college classes, and get college grades that show how you perform in college. You prove yourself by actually doing the thing the standardized test is supposed to evaluate. I would propose that we look at tests not as the solution, but as another layer of bullshit hoops people have to jump through. Just get people bootstrapped into the damn thing at low-cost, and see how they perform. Evaluate them based on that. Being an SAT savant doesn't mean someone will actually be able to do anything meaningful in the real world. Sure, that path may not guarantee you a spot at MIT, but if you come from a variety of backgrounds and have some humility about the whole thing you're going to be just fine and you will have more than enough control to steer your destiny in whatever direction your interests lead you. Anecdotal, but all of my friends who make over $100k went to state schools for undergrad and grad school, and not going to Yale didn't seem to pose too much of an obstacle to them leading happy, productive, and fulfilling lives.
light_hue_1 5y ago
> Ideally what colleges should do is to use a standardized test and go strictly by the results of the standardized test. Standardized tests are not perfect, but if there are flaws in standardized tests then fix them, because it is better than the alternatives Standardized tests are terrible. Predicting the outcomes of standardized tests is very simple, it's a function of your parents income. https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/ https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and... With a 0.95 R^2. Simply put, standardized tests would make sure that only rich people go to good schools. > Other countries such as UK use test scores for college admissions. At one time the US too used scores. But US colleges introduced subjective criteria ("holistic reviews") because far too many Jewish people were getting admitted when they used objective criteria. ( No. That's not what happened. This is the history according to the National Educational Association: https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/racist-beginnings-standardized-testing https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/racis... In the beginning, US colleges did not use standardized tests. A well-known racist who was against the "intermingling of races" created standardized tests to exclude races he did not like. And for the most part, it worked beautifully, except that too many Jews were getting in, so they added other criteria on top. The idea of standardized tests exists because of racism. It was recognized by its inventor to be a tool for racism and classism. > Other countries such as UK use test scores for college admissions Yeah, how's that going? Notice who gets into Oxford and Cambridge? It's not really the lower classes. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/oxford-cambridge-white-students-university-poverty-deprived-areas-diversity-a8779081.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/... Only 20% of Cambridge students are eligible for a grant that takes 50% more than the median income to get. https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/16287 https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/16287 That means that they overwhelmingly come from families with very high income.
- usaar333 5y ago
  > With a 0.95 R^2. That's not the R^2 of your SAT based on income; that's the R^2 of average scores within an income bucket. Predictability based on income is far, far lower with other factors more significant (https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9gs5v3pv https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9gs5v3pv). > The idea of standardized tests exists because of racism. It was recognized by its inventor to be a tool for racism and classism. Huh? Prior to tests, schools were even more classist. Standardized tests have also been used in all sorts of societies historically explicitly to break class lines. i.e. the Chinese Imperial Examinations (created over 2,000 years ago) intentionally were created so that candidates were not just merely young aristocrats recommended by other aristocrats (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination). And yes, the institution of holistic review (ironically, not relying as much on tests) was absolutely driven by anti-semitism. See https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/21/holistic-admissions-origin/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/21/holistic-admiss.... Of course, neither the history of testing or holistic admissions says anything about the actual value of them today.

phobosanomaly 5y ago

That really depends on what you mean by 'destiny.' If you go to community college, work hard, and get decent grades you are more-or-less guaranteed a transfer spot at a good state school. It's actually pretty easy to transfer from a California community college right into UCSD, UCLA, UCR, etc., and these are all excellent, affordable schools. Nowhere in that process do you have to take the SAT or the ACT. You just take college classes, and get college grades that show how you perform in college. You prove yourself by actually doing the thing the standardized test is supposed to evaluate. I would propose that we look at tests not as the solution, but as another layer of bullshit hoops people have to jump through. Just get people bootstrapped into the damn thing at low-cost, and see how they perform. Evaluate them based on that. Being an SAT savant doesn't mean someone will actually be able to do anything meaningful in the real world. Sure, that path may not guarantee you a spot at MIT, but if you come from a variety of backgrounds and have some humility about the whole thing you're going to be just fine and you will have more than enough control to steer your destiny in whatever direction your interests lead you. Anecdotal, but all of my friends who make over $100k went to state schools for undergrad and grad school, and not going to Yale didn't seem to pose too much of an obstacle to them leading happy, productive, and fulfilling lives.

light_hue_1 5y ago

> Ideally what colleges should do is to use a standardized test and go strictly by the results of the standardized test. Standardized tests are not perfect, but if there are flaws in standardized tests then fix them, because it is better than the alternatives Standardized tests are terrible. Predicting the outcomes of standardized tests is very simple, it's a function of your parents income. https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/ https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and... With a 0.95 R^2. Simply put, standardized tests would make sure that only rich people go to good schools. > Other countries such as UK use test scores for college admissions. At one time the US too used scores. But US colleges introduced subjective criteria ("holistic reviews") because far too many Jewish people were getting admitted when they used objective criteria. ( No. That's not what happened. This is the history according to the National Educational Association: https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/racist-beginnings-standardized-testing https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/racis... In the beginning, US colleges did not use standardized tests. A well-known racist who was against the "intermingling of races" created standardized tests to exclude races he did not like. And for the most part, it worked beautifully, except that too many Jews were getting in, so they added other criteria on top. The idea of standardized tests exists because of racism. It was recognized by its inventor to be a tool for racism and classism. > Other countries such as UK use test scores for college admissions Yeah, how's that going? Notice who gets into Oxford and Cambridge? It's not really the lower classes. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/oxford-cambridge-white-students-university-poverty-deprived-areas-diversity-a8779081.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/... Only 20% of Cambridge students are eligible for a grant that takes 50% more than the median income to get. https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/16287 https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/16287 That means that they overwhelmingly come from families with very high income.

usaar333 5y ago
> With a 0.95 R^2. That's not the R^2 of your SAT based on income; that's the R^2 of average scores within an income bucket. Predictability based on income is far, far lower with other factors more significant (https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9gs5v3pv https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9gs5v3pv). > The idea of standardized tests exists because of racism. It was recognized by its inventor to be a tool for racism and classism. Huh? Prior to tests, schools were even more classist. Standardized tests have also been used in all sorts of societies historically explicitly to break class lines. i.e. the Chinese Imperial Examinations (created over 2,000 years ago) intentionally were created so that candidates were not just merely young aristocrats recommended by other aristocrats (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination). And yes, the institution of holistic review (ironically, not relying as much on tests) was absolutely driven by anti-semitism. See https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/21/holistic-admissions-origin/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/21/holistic-admiss.... Of course, neither the history of testing or holistic admissions says anything about the actual value of them today.