5 ms·

I mean really. Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a

I mean really. Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic? The laziness comes first. The excuse is crafted after the fact. If it wasnt that they'd claim to have some other disadvantage or problem.

JamesBarney 5y ago
A lot of psychotherapy is convincing individuals that they are in control of their actions and can decide how they react to and influence their environment. A lot of what we're teaching now is the opposite. It's like anti-CBT. Teach everyone they are helpless against the nefarious powers that be.
- breakyerself 5y ago
  There needs to be nuance for sure. People are still responsible for their own actions and the only way to guarantee you wont succeed is to not try. At the same time there is systemic unfairness both in the legacy of racism that has created inequality and in how society operates to this very day and I don't know how you solve those problems if you don't address them. The status quo is not acceptable to myself or a lot of other people
  - esyir 5y ago
    You're missing the point. The current narrative of systemic racism and the victimhood culture it creates isnt helping, it's exacerbating the issues and reinforcing itself. By conditioning people into believing that an outside force is the primary, if not only factor impacting their lack of success, you demotivate them from trying to adjust other factors that could improve their situation. The issue isn't that we address racism, it's that racism has become the end-all rationalisation for any deficiency at the individual level.
    - breakyerself 5y ago
      You seem to be missing my point. There ARE systemic disadvantages to being black. I get that you're of the opinion that telling people about racial inequality can demotivate them and make them feel fatalistic about their futures, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment to the degree this is the case and you seem to think there is no room for nuance here. We must stop talking about this immediately. People are too simple to understand that there is still some unfairness that needs to be resolved, but that they should do their best regardless. No we must lie to them and tell them the system is fair and through their ignorance they will magically overcome the disadvantages they face. You seem to think fear of systemic racism is a bigger obstacle to the success of black people than actual systemic racism and I just think that's absurd. Your basic premise that fear of institutional racism can be demotivating is valid and worth consideration. You're elevating it to the root cause of all problems is absurd. A black job applicant will receive half as many callbacks for job interviews compared to an identically qualified white applicant. There are little obstacles like that all over our society. Can they be overcome through tenacity and perseverance? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't work to fix that %#@#? Hell No!
      - esyir 5y ago
        The issue is that it's not framed that way. It's framed as all or nothing, that blacks fail only because of racism. That's my lk entire issue. The message isn'tthat they're disadvantaged, the message is that there is 0 chance. One encourages them to hold out as it gets better, the other for them to give up till it gets better. I'm not calling it the root of all problems either, so please don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying it's not even a solution, it's the opposite, worsening the situation and feeding itself. And to be specific here, I'm referring to the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure.
        sagichmal 5y ago
        No, it isn't framed as all or nothing. Principally because "the framing" isn't some well-defined objective thing, it's all a matter of perception, which means it's always possible to read whatever narrative you like into the facts. Like this: > the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure. This perception is yours, not the facts on the ground.
- julienfr112 5y ago
  Remind me of a South Park episode about alcoholism / AA ...
- lsiebert 5y ago
  Yeah, but nobody is teaching that. Nobody is going in and telling kids that they are helpless victims. That's just fox news nonsense. Which environment is easier to influence, one in which you are more aware of underlying factors, or one in which you are less aware?
- speedcoder 5y ago
  What is CBT?
  - ne0flex 5y ago
    Cognitive Behavior Therapies
ne0flex 5y ago
>Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic? In the case of that particular individual I'd say it's less laziness and more of systemic racism being deterrent to attempt self-improvement. In the "even if I try, I won't get ahead because these systems will hold me back" sense. The point I was trying to make is that it's a lot easier to point the blame at something than admit to yourself that you suck - even if you're capable. I don't know what your definition of systemic racism is, so I can't make a proper argument for/against it. In any case, your comment has given me some food for thought in how I approach this person.
- breakyerself 5y ago
  There is something to be said about demotivation and dispair. As someone who also spends a lot of time thinking about global warming there is a tendency to have bouts of feeling doomed here and there. It's not unjustified, but it also does no good. We need the information so we can solve the problem. We just need to learn to process it in a healthy way. I would just say that anyone who claims they won't get ahead even if they try because of systemic racism is being ignorant. They might have to try harder than a white person would. They might face some adversity, but there really is no excuse for not trying. It would literally perpetuate the problem.
  - tnzm 5y ago
    >I would just say that anyone who claims they won't get ahead even if they try because of systemic racism is being ignorant. They might have to try harder than a white person would. They might face some adversity, but there really is no excuse for not trying. It would literally perpetuate the problem. Not only does systemic racism exist, not only has the environment succeeded in inducing a victim mentality in this person, you are now blaming them for it? Classical "pull yourself by your bootstraps" bullshit. Do you really not see how dehumanizing your viewpoint is, and how such attitudes help perpetuate that person's inaction? >As someone who also spends a lot of time thinking about global warming there is a tendency to have bouts of feeling doomed here and there. Not to belittle your own existential fears, but feeling doomed due to global warming at least doesn't make you feel like there's something wrong with you in particular. It's strange - people with a victim mentality are victims of their victim mentality. It's recursive and self-fulfilling, and it does take some amount of bootstrapping - which is, however, perfectly impossible in the absence of a bootloader and someone to push the power button.
lsiebert 5y ago
Sounds like plenty of people with ADHD I know who don't have their meds. I wouldn't say they are lazy, I would say they have poor executive function when not taking medication to compensate.

JamesBarney 5y ago

A lot of psychotherapy is convincing individuals that they are in control of their actions and can decide how they react to and influence their environment. A lot of what we're teaching now is the opposite. It's like anti-CBT. Teach everyone they are helpless against the nefarious powers that be.

breakyerself 5y ago
There needs to be nuance for sure. People are still responsible for their own actions and the only way to guarantee you wont succeed is to not try. At the same time there is systemic unfairness both in the legacy of racism that has created inequality and in how society operates to this very day and I don't know how you solve those problems if you don't address them. The status quo is not acceptable to myself or a lot of other people
- esyir 5y ago
  You're missing the point. The current narrative of systemic racism and the victimhood culture it creates isnt helping, it's exacerbating the issues and reinforcing itself. By conditioning people into believing that an outside force is the primary, if not only factor impacting their lack of success, you demotivate them from trying to adjust other factors that could improve their situation. The issue isn't that we address racism, it's that racism has become the end-all rationalisation for any deficiency at the individual level.
  - breakyerself 5y ago
    You seem to be missing my point. There ARE systemic disadvantages to being black. I get that you're of the opinion that telling people about racial inequality can demotivate them and make them feel fatalistic about their futures, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment to the degree this is the case and you seem to think there is no room for nuance here. We must stop talking about this immediately. People are too simple to understand that there is still some unfairness that needs to be resolved, but that they should do their best regardless. No we must lie to them and tell them the system is fair and through their ignorance they will magically overcome the disadvantages they face. You seem to think fear of systemic racism is a bigger obstacle to the success of black people than actual systemic racism and I just think that's absurd. Your basic premise that fear of institutional racism can be demotivating is valid and worth consideration. You're elevating it to the root cause of all problems is absurd. A black job applicant will receive half as many callbacks for job interviews compared to an identically qualified white applicant. There are little obstacles like that all over our society. Can they be overcome through tenacity and perseverance? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't work to fix that %#@#? Hell No!
    - esyir 5y ago
      The issue is that it's not framed that way. It's framed as all or nothing, that blacks fail only because of racism. That's my lk entire issue. The message isn'tthat they're disadvantaged, the message is that there is 0 chance. One encourages them to hold out as it gets better, the other for them to give up till it gets better. I'm not calling it the root of all problems either, so please don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying it's not even a solution, it's the opposite, worsening the situation and feeding itself. And to be specific here, I'm referring to the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure.
      - sagichmal 5y ago
        No, it isn't framed as all or nothing. Principally because "the framing" isn't some well-defined objective thing, it's all a matter of perception, which means it's always possible to read whatever narrative you like into the facts. Like this: > the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure. This perception is yours, not the facts on the ground.
julienfr112 5y ago
Remind me of a South Park episode about alcoholism / AA ...
lsiebert 5y ago
Yeah, but nobody is teaching that. Nobody is going in and telling kids that they are helpless victims. That's just fox news nonsense. Which environment is easier to influence, one in which you are more aware of underlying factors, or one in which you are less aware?
speedcoder 5y ago
What is CBT?
- ne0flex 5y ago
  Cognitive Behavior Therapies

ne0flex 5y ago

>Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic? In the case of that particular individual I'd say it's less laziness and more of systemic racism being deterrent to attempt self-improvement. In the "even if I try, I won't get ahead because these systems will hold me back" sense. The point I was trying to make is that it's a lot easier to point the blame at something than admit to yourself that you suck - even if you're capable. I don't know what your definition of systemic racism is, so I can't make a proper argument for/against it. In any case, your comment has given me some food for thought in how I approach this person.

breakyerself 5y ago
There is something to be said about demotivation and dispair. As someone who also spends a lot of time thinking about global warming there is a tendency to have bouts of feeling doomed here and there. It's not unjustified, but it also does no good. We need the information so we can solve the problem. We just need to learn to process it in a healthy way. I would just say that anyone who claims they won't get ahead even if they try because of systemic racism is being ignorant. They might have to try harder than a white person would. They might face some adversity, but there really is no excuse for not trying. It would literally perpetuate the problem.
- tnzm 5y ago
  >I would just say that anyone who claims they won't get ahead even if they try because of systemic racism is being ignorant. They might have to try harder than a white person would. They might face some adversity, but there really is no excuse for not trying. It would literally perpetuate the problem. Not only does systemic racism exist, not only has the environment succeeded in inducing a victim mentality in this person, you are now blaming them for it? Classical "pull yourself by your bootstraps" bullshit. Do you really not see how dehumanizing your viewpoint is, and how such attitudes help perpetuate that person's inaction? >As someone who also spends a lot of time thinking about global warming there is a tendency to have bouts of feeling doomed here and there. Not to belittle your own existential fears, but feeling doomed due to global warming at least doesn't make you feel like there's something wrong with you in particular. It's strange - people with a victim mentality are victims of their victim mentality. It's recursive and self-fulfilling, and it does take some amount of bootstrapping - which is, however, perfectly impossible in the absence of a bootloader and someone to push the power button.

lsiebert 5y ago

Sounds like plenty of people with ADHD I know who don't have their meds. I wouldn't say they are lazy, I would say they have poor executive function when not taking medication to compensate.