3 ms·

It's a little bit of a desperate attempt at meritocracy however. Affluent parents will still be able to generate systems where their kids get better scores. And

It's a little bit of a desperate attempt at meritocracy however. Affluent parents will still be able to generate systems where their kids get better scores. And 'better scores on exams' might be a very crude predictor of future skills, it's not remotely all encompassing. So 'selecting' for your elite on the basis of a few exams at age 18 is probably a bad idea. Macron just announced the closure of the 'Grand Ecole' of Administration for this reason. Basically, France (and Europe inc. UK) traded their Nobility for a more meritocratic system, i.e. Elite Schools, but the notion that 'all the power goes to kids from those schools' is a little ridiculous as well. (Edit: all the power does go to kids from those schools, that is ridiculous, I'm not saying the 'idea that this exists' is ridiculous). And FYI even if the Soviet System was a little more flat ... in the current Western systems (with deep problems) there are scholarships aplenty for top students. It's just hard for young kids to internalize the importance of a good education. In high school, I really had no idea how important it would be. Elite schools are worthwhile however, I wish early education were not so competitive, and, we didn't focus quite so much on the name brand of a school.

Dah00n 6y ago
Elite schools are worthwhile if it isn't in it for the money like most (all?) elite schools in the US. In that regard the Soviet system were far superior.
- jollybean 6y ago
  No, the Soviet System was a complete failure from top to bottom, producing some great scientists is nice but a side show. Using standardized tests from 14-21 to select leadership feels very meritocratic, but it's also very crude. Also there is the ugly notion that maybe the best way to lead a nation is not purely meritocratic. American Ivy League, despite their follies, produce a ton of very high calibre people. So does the 2cnd tier and below that, it's possible to get a very decent education but less guarantees of exceptional outcomes. Some industries are full of Ivy League grads but many are not.
  - vl 6y ago
    Well, I agree that Soviet Union was failure from top to bottom (non-market economy and dictatorship can get you just so far). But with this said, it was possible to get excellent education in Soviet Union, and (with a lot of hard work) it was available to anyone.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    Producing great scientists is a failure? Maybe we should aim to fail more.
    - jollybean 6y ago
      Yes, if all you do is produce some good scientists, win a few gold medals, and your people starve in oppression and poverty, that is a pretty big failure. Also, throughout that time and even now the US produces amazing scientists and also has the means for them to 'do stuff'. FYI I'm not American, I understand these things are far from perfect. I'm mostly harking back to the notion of 'standardized test and ABC school as elite' is probably not so good. America is open enough that even though some industries are chock-a-block Ivy League, many are not.
      - bawolff 6y ago
        I'm not saying that the soviet union was a paradise, far from it, just that its weird for someone to describe creating good scientists as a "failure" when talking about educational systems. That's not to say that it might not have other flaws, i just struggle to see how creating scientists itself is a flaw.
HenryKissinger 6y ago
> the notion that 'all the power goes to kids from those schools' is a little ridiculous as well. It's really not. "As of November 2020, of the 55 prime ministers to date, 28 were educated at the University of Oxford (including 13 at Christ Church), and 14 at the University of Cambridge (including six at Trinity College)." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_education https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_t...
- jollybean 6y ago
  My implication was that 'all the power goes to this group, which is ridiculous' - not 'the idea that people have that all the power is concentrated there is a bad idea'. Probably my bad.
gryn 6y ago
what macron announced was just PR speak. ENA will be closed, a new school with a different name (ESP) serving the same function and doing exactly the same as before will be opened in 2022.

Dah00n 6y ago

Elite schools are worthwhile if it isn't in it for the money like most (all?) elite schools in the US. In that regard the Soviet system were far superior.

jollybean 6y ago
No, the Soviet System was a complete failure from top to bottom, producing some great scientists is nice but a side show. Using standardized tests from 14-21 to select leadership feels very meritocratic, but it's also very crude. Also there is the ugly notion that maybe the best way to lead a nation is not purely meritocratic. American Ivy League, despite their follies, produce a ton of very high calibre people. So does the 2cnd tier and below that, it's possible to get a very decent education but less guarantees of exceptional outcomes. Some industries are full of Ivy League grads but many are not.
- vl 6y ago
  Well, I agree that Soviet Union was failure from top to bottom (non-market economy and dictatorship can get you just so far). But with this said, it was possible to get excellent education in Soviet Union, and (with a lot of hard work) it was available to anyone.
- bawolff 6y ago
  Producing great scientists is a failure? Maybe we should aim to fail more.
  - jollybean 6y ago
    Yes, if all you do is produce some good scientists, win a few gold medals, and your people starve in oppression and poverty, that is a pretty big failure. Also, throughout that time and even now the US produces amazing scientists and also has the means for them to 'do stuff'. FYI I'm not American, I understand these things are far from perfect. I'm mostly harking back to the notion of 'standardized test and ABC school as elite' is probably not so good. America is open enough that even though some industries are chock-a-block Ivy League, many are not.
    - bawolff 6y ago
      I'm not saying that the soviet union was a paradise, far from it, just that its weird for someone to describe creating good scientists as a "failure" when talking about educational systems. That's not to say that it might not have other flaws, i just struggle to see how creating scientists itself is a flaw.

HenryKissinger 6y ago

> the notion that 'all the power goes to kids from those schools' is a little ridiculous as well. It's really not. "As of November 2020, of the 55 prime ministers to date, 28 were educated at the University of Oxford (including 13 at Christ Church), and 14 at the University of Cambridge (including six at Trinity College)." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_education https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_t...

jollybean 6y ago
My implication was that 'all the power goes to this group, which is ridiculous' - not 'the idea that people have that all the power is concentrated there is a bad idea'. Probably my bad.

gryn 6y ago

what macron announced was just PR speak. ENA will be closed, a new school with a different name (ESP) serving the same function and doing exactly the same as before will be opened in 2022.