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> the schools that focus their training on the quest for competitive advantage betray every plausible ideal of academic excellence. The author does not seem to

> the schools that focus their training on the quest for competitive advantage betray every plausible ideal of academic excellence. The author does not seem to understand that these are not mutually exclusive. You can receive a fantastic, genuinely excellent education that is also a competitive advantage. Indeed, they go hand in hand - I’d argue it’s harder to give an excellent education that’s somehow not advantageous. This article is a rant against elite education because it enables elite opportunities. But perhaps there is something to be said for the students of such schools too, that employers are more likely to give them elite opportunities. There are too many confounding variables to determine the true cause of this “problem”, if it (a merit-based system enabling social mobility) is problematic at all. There are things we can improve, but overall, the emphasis on education is a step in the right direction for humanity.

kungito 5y ago
The problem I personally felt was that the criteria used to filter out the people "not worthy of the degree" felt very detached from the idea of knowledge. The facts and methods required for minimal passing criteria felt very arbitrary and unless you were one of the people learning 100% of the subject it felt a lot like a system which needed to be gamed to get a good/passing grade. As soon as you need explicit and exact filters for grades and passing the learning resolves less around ideas and concepts and more about facts and techniques which is not what at least to me science and engineering is about.
rejectedandsad 5y ago
What about the rest of us? Should we just be just be shunted to the second, third, and fourth rungs of society because we didn’t have the right extracurriculars or only got a 1450 instead of a 1550? 99% of Americans have never attended and likely could not gain admittance to the top 20 schools, to paraphrase William Jennings Bryan the rest of us should not be crucified on a cross of Ivy.
- navait 5y ago
  Are the second, third and fourth rungs so horrible? The bottom of the ladder is pretty bad, but people going to uni are unlikely to be on the bottom. As far as computer science goes, you can be a total fuck up and still easily live an upper middle class life.
- xvector 5y ago
  You are not being “crucified” in any sense of the word. I guarantee you that there are still incredible opportunities available for second, third, etc place. The current system encourages high levels of academic performance, which is precisely what our species needs to advance. There must be some sort of incentive.
  - rejectedandsad 5y ago
    It's abundantly clear that there aren't incredible opportunities on the second, third, fourth rung of society, speaking as someone that "lost" all of the meritocracy games. We get the message from everyone that we clearly do not matter. For the record, I don't know how the average Yale graduate is "advancing our species" more than the average UMBC or UNC Wilmington graduate.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  So funny thing. I was doing some research into the “non traditional” programs at the top schools. A handful have programs for people who have been outside of academic for some years, and allows them to earn the same undergrad degree. However the same gpa and test score requirements are all in place and you’re still being judged by who you were at 17/18. I suppose the main difference is instead of looking at involvement in things like sports, student organizations, volunteering, etc. it’s looking at work experience or membership in professional organizations. But at that point why not just have the apply as a normal undergrad?
  - rejectedandsad 5y ago
    It's extremely depressing. I really don't feel like I have much hope knowing I'll never be able to achieve anything because of who I was when I was in high school - it's even worse because I knew what I wanted in high school (Siemens, high school research, etc), but had no idea how to accomplish it.
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I am going to paraphrase certain philosophy professor on one of those elite institutions. That person [ who chooses to basically blow off the readings and learning and brags about how it does not affect his grade ] is an idiot. The purpose of going here is not to spend $60k a year of your parents money and learn nothing. I am willing to agree. Each individual student has a choice. Some choose to learn. Some choose to waste their parent's sacrifice ( because they had to use their resources to get that offspring in ).
hallarempt 5y ago
"The author does not seem to understand that these are not mutually exclusive." Given that he teaches at Yale, he probably understands more than any of us in this comment thread.

kungito 5y ago

The problem I personally felt was that the criteria used to filter out the people "not worthy of the degree" felt very detached from the idea of knowledge. The facts and methods required for minimal passing criteria felt very arbitrary and unless you were one of the people learning 100% of the subject it felt a lot like a system which needed to be gamed to get a good/passing grade. As soon as you need explicit and exact filters for grades and passing the learning resolves less around ideas and concepts and more about facts and techniques which is not what at least to me science and engineering is about.

rejectedandsad 5y ago

What about the rest of us? Should we just be just be shunted to the second, third, and fourth rungs of society because we didn’t have the right extracurriculars or only got a 1450 instead of a 1550? 99% of Americans have never attended and likely could not gain admittance to the top 20 schools, to paraphrase William Jennings Bryan the rest of us should not be crucified on a cross of Ivy.

navait 5y ago
Are the second, third and fourth rungs so horrible? The bottom of the ladder is pretty bad, but people going to uni are unlikely to be on the bottom. As far as computer science goes, you can be a total fuck up and still easily live an upper middle class life.
xvector 5y ago
You are not being “crucified” in any sense of the word. I guarantee you that there are still incredible opportunities available for second, third, etc place. The current system encourages high levels of academic performance, which is precisely what our species needs to advance. There must be some sort of incentive.
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  It's abundantly clear that there aren't incredible opportunities on the second, third, fourth rung of society, speaking as someone that "lost" all of the meritocracy games. We get the message from everyone that we clearly do not matter. For the record, I don't know how the average Yale graduate is "advancing our species" more than the average UMBC or UNC Wilmington graduate.
the_only_law 5y ago
So funny thing. I was doing some research into the “non traditional” programs at the top schools. A handful have programs for people who have been outside of academic for some years, and allows them to earn the same undergrad degree. However the same gpa and test score requirements are all in place and you’re still being judged by who you were at 17/18. I suppose the main difference is instead of looking at involvement in things like sports, student organizations, volunteering, etc. it’s looking at work experience or membership in professional organizations. But at that point why not just have the apply as a normal undergrad?
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  It's extremely depressing. I really don't feel like I have much hope knowing I'll never be able to achieve anything because of who I was when I was in high school - it's even worse because I knew what I wanted in high school (Siemens, high school research, etc), but had no idea how to accomplish it.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

I am going to paraphrase certain philosophy professor on one of those elite institutions. That person [ who chooses to basically blow off the readings and learning and brags about how it does not affect his grade ] is an idiot. The purpose of going here is not to spend $60k a year of your parents money and learn nothing. I am willing to agree. Each individual student has a choice. Some choose to learn. Some choose to waste their parent's sacrifice ( because they had to use their resources to get that offspring in ).

hallarempt 5y ago

"The author does not seem to understand that these are not mutually exclusive." Given that he teaches at Yale, he probably understands more than any of us in this comment thread.