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I'd argue there's a lot more nuances to system racism than the general narrative that is currently being perpettuated. Looking into those nuances would be frown

I'd argue there's a lot more nuances to system racism than the general narrative that is currently being perpettuated. Looking into those nuances would be frowned upon because certain groups differ from other groups for reasons that are not truly understood but would cause us to ask questions we're not comfortable with. Though anecdotal, I know several adults who have fallen into the "it's because systemic racism that I can't get ahead" trap. One example is a low-achiever socially awkward friend of mine that complains about not being able to find a tech job, yet spends the vast majority of his days playing video games. Instead of recongizing that his skills (social and coding) are subpar and addressing it, he chalks it up to systemic racism, makes an angry post on Facebook and calls it a day.

exporectomy 5y ago
I think American culture has potentially gone down an ever-worsening path that comes from assuming blacks and whites are inherently identical. That leads to the belief that the persistent differences in life outcomes must be caused by oppression. That means there's an oppressor who is evil and deserves punishment. What if the fundamental assumption isn't true? How long do you keep punishing the oppressor for? Not to get all Godwinny but that's also how 1930's Germans saw Jews. They were the greedy bankers taking that reparations money and oppressing the native Germans. so they deserved punishment.
- danShumway 5y ago
  Wait, what? We went from "teaching about systemic racism might be harmful", to "systemic racism doesn't exist", to "Blacks are inherently different from other races, which will naturally lead to different outcomes" to "critical race theory might lead to nazism." This is a wild rollercoaster of a thread and I want off of it. To jump off the original commenter's point, if you're concerned that there might be harmful outcomes from teaching students that society is keeping them down, why aren't you worried about similar outcomes that might come from teaching them that their race makes them inherently less suited for certain tasks? I mean, think about what you're implying here. To claim that inherent race differences is the reason there's a Black wage gap -- ignoring everything else about that statement, it's way more fatalistic than telling kids that there are adverse social structures they should be aware of. Imagine being a teacher in a poor neighborhood and telling your class that the negative experiences in their life exist because of the fact they're Black -- not because of systemic racism, not because of laziness, not because of luck, but because of how they were born. You really can't get more fatalistic and harmful than that. It's so utterly embarrassing to see comments like this on HN, directly under other comments that claim that racism is a solved problem. Sometimes this community really creeps me out, I'm watching people in the same breath argue that racism is solved and that Blacks are genetically predisposed to being poor. How does this pass muster?
  - ziml77 5y ago
    > I'm watching people in the same breath argue that racism is solved and that Blacks are genetically predisposed to being poor. How does this pass muster? Because if they genuinely believe that blacks are inferior, then racism truly musn't exist from their perspective. They think that blacks will naturally be worse off and thus elevating them from there to a level where they're equal is actually unfair and racist to whites. It's insane, I know, but it really is how people like that think.
    - exporectomy 5y ago
      How do you propose to gain equality? You can't force inherent ability into someone. Perhaps what you want is flat wages for all jobs, including unemployment? Since racism is too shocking an idea for you, consider intellectually disabled people instead. How would you make them equal? We can provide special support services to improve their quality of life but we can't turn them into engineers if they're not capable.
      - danShumway 5y ago
        That's not at all what anyone here means by "equal". There is zero scientific reason to believe that Black wage gaps exist because Black people are genetically inferior to whites, and there is a ton of scientific reason to believe that Black wage gaps are influenced by systems we have set up that have nothing to do with the individual. Equality means fixing those systems. Equality means giving kids who are born in a ghetto the same education opportunities and investment opportunities as someone who is born in a rich white neighborhood. It means engineering our society so that success isn't a lottery based on the income level of your school. The color of your skin has no bearing on your innate ability to be an engineer, so what when we try to address structural inequality we're not trying to suppress anyone's unique abilities. Quite the opposite, we are trying to remove the structures like racism, education gaps, and investment gaps that get in the way of people's unique abilities. How many Black engineers never get a chance to discover their potential simply because their school is too poor to afford computers or software? We are also not trying to force everyone into a single uniform outcome, we are trying to remove systems that enforce uniform outcomes based on attributes like social connections and income that have nothing to do with innate talent. How many otherwise successful Black businesses were destroyed by openly racist policies like redlining, or because investors have an unscientific, biased view of what a successful businessperson "ought" to look like or what people they "ought" to know? Now, separately, equality also means guaranteeing the same basic rights and social assurances to everyone regardless of their race and ability. That doesn't mean that everyone can do everything equally as well, it doesn't mean that everyone should have the same job or that success is evil. But even people who are not qualified to be engineers should be able to at least live normal lives without the threat of extreme poverty. They should be able to find housing. They shouldn't be put in situations where they're frightened of their local police. Equality means that Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness belongs to everyone, regardless of where you were born or what other people think about the color of your skin. So we're not looking to get rid of success, be we are looking to build basic social safety nets that guarantee that people are not left behind or discarded by society just because a company doesn't think they're useful enough to deserve a livable wage. And yeah, that applies to intellectually disabled and differently abled communities as well. Being born with a learning disability is not a good reason for someone to be homeless. Those people also deserve dignity and a place in society.
- breakyerself 5y ago
  Yeah saying systemic racism is to whites as nazism is to Jews is pretty damned godwinny
- watwut 5y ago
  > That leads to the belief that the persistent differences in life outcomes must be caused by oppression. ... Not to get all Godwinny but that's also how 1930's Germans saw Jews. That is not what Nazi Germany believed. Also, coincidentally, German Jews were not more rich then average, there was no persistent difference like that. They were lower middle class that clustered in the few cities. Portion of them were refugees from Eastern Europe. Also, Germany had actually very small Jewish minority which was very integrated.
breakyerself 5y ago
I mean really. Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic? The laziness comes first. The excuse is crafted after the fact. If it wasnt that they'd claim to have some other disadvantage or problem.
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  A lot of psychotherapy is convincing individuals that they are in control of their actions and can decide how they react to and influence their environment. A lot of what we're teaching now is the opposite. It's like anti-CBT. Teach everyone they are helpless against the nefarious powers that be.
  - breakyerself 5y ago
    There needs to be nuance for sure. People are still responsible for their own actions and the only way to guarantee you wont succeed is to not try. At the same time there is systemic unfairness both in the legacy of racism that has created inequality and in how society operates to this very day and I don't know how you solve those problems if you don't address them. The status quo is not acceptable to myself or a lot of other people
    - esyir 5y ago
      You're missing the point. The current narrative of systemic racism and the victimhood culture it creates isnt helping, it's exacerbating the issues and reinforcing itself. By conditioning people into believing that an outside force is the primary, if not only factor impacting their lack of success, you demotivate them from trying to adjust other factors that could improve their situation. The issue isn't that we address racism, it's that racism has become the end-all rationalisation for any deficiency at the individual level.
      - breakyerself 5y ago
        You seem to be missing my point. There ARE systemic disadvantages to being black. I get that you're of the opinion that telling people about racial inequality can demotivate them and make them feel fatalistic about their futures, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment to the degree this is the case and you seem to think there is no room for nuance here. We must stop talking about this immediately. People are too simple to understand that there is still some unfairness that needs to be resolved, but that they should do their best regardless. No we must lie to them and tell them the system is fair and through their ignorance they will magically overcome the disadvantages they face. You seem to think fear of systemic racism is a bigger obstacle to the success of black people than actual systemic racism and I just think that's absurd. Your basic premise that fear of institutional racism can be demotivating is valid and worth consideration. You're elevating it to the root cause of all problems is absurd. A black job applicant will receive half as many callbacks for job interviews compared to an identically qualified white applicant. There are little obstacles like that all over our society. Can they be overcome through tenacity and perseverance? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't work to fix that %#@#? Hell No!

exporectomy 5y ago

I think American culture has potentially gone down an ever-worsening path that comes from assuming blacks and whites are inherently identical. That leads to the belief that the persistent differences in life outcomes must be caused by oppression. That means there's an oppressor who is evil and deserves punishment. What if the fundamental assumption isn't true? How long do you keep punishing the oppressor for? Not to get all Godwinny but that's also how 1930's Germans saw Jews. They were the greedy bankers taking that reparations money and oppressing the native Germans. so they deserved punishment.

danShumway 5y ago
Wait, what? We went from "teaching about systemic racism might be harmful", to "systemic racism doesn't exist", to "Blacks are inherently different from other races, which will naturally lead to different outcomes" to "critical race theory might lead to nazism." This is a wild rollercoaster of a thread and I want off of it. To jump off the original commenter's point, if you're concerned that there might be harmful outcomes from teaching students that society is keeping them down, why aren't you worried about similar outcomes that might come from teaching them that their race makes them inherently less suited for certain tasks? I mean, think about what you're implying here. To claim that inherent race differences is the reason there's a Black wage gap -- ignoring everything else about that statement, it's way more fatalistic than telling kids that there are adverse social structures they should be aware of. Imagine being a teacher in a poor neighborhood and telling your class that the negative experiences in their life exist because of the fact they're Black -- not because of systemic racism, not because of laziness, not because of luck, but because of how they were born. You really can't get more fatalistic and harmful than that. It's so utterly embarrassing to see comments like this on HN, directly under other comments that claim that racism is a solved problem. Sometimes this community really creeps me out, I'm watching people in the same breath argue that racism is solved and that Blacks are genetically predisposed to being poor. How does this pass muster?
- ziml77 5y ago
  > I'm watching people in the same breath argue that racism is solved and that Blacks are genetically predisposed to being poor. How does this pass muster? Because if they genuinely believe that blacks are inferior, then racism truly musn't exist from their perspective. They think that blacks will naturally be worse off and thus elevating them from there to a level where they're equal is actually unfair and racist to whites. It's insane, I know, but it really is how people like that think.
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    How do you propose to gain equality? You can't force inherent ability into someone. Perhaps what you want is flat wages for all jobs, including unemployment? Since racism is too shocking an idea for you, consider intellectually disabled people instead. How would you make them equal? We can provide special support services to improve their quality of life but we can't turn them into engineers if they're not capable.
    - danShumway 5y ago
      That's not at all what anyone here means by "equal". There is zero scientific reason to believe that Black wage gaps exist because Black people are genetically inferior to whites, and there is a ton of scientific reason to believe that Black wage gaps are influenced by systems we have set up that have nothing to do with the individual. Equality means fixing those systems. Equality means giving kids who are born in a ghetto the same education opportunities and investment opportunities as someone who is born in a rich white neighborhood. It means engineering our society so that success isn't a lottery based on the income level of your school. The color of your skin has no bearing on your innate ability to be an engineer, so what when we try to address structural inequality we're not trying to suppress anyone's unique abilities. Quite the opposite, we are trying to remove the structures like racism, education gaps, and investment gaps that get in the way of people's unique abilities. How many Black engineers never get a chance to discover their potential simply because their school is too poor to afford computers or software? We are also not trying to force everyone into a single uniform outcome, we are trying to remove systems that enforce uniform outcomes based on attributes like social connections and income that have nothing to do with innate talent. How many otherwise successful Black businesses were destroyed by openly racist policies like redlining, or because investors have an unscientific, biased view of what a successful businessperson "ought" to look like or what people they "ought" to know? Now, separately, equality also means guaranteeing the same basic rights and social assurances to everyone regardless of their race and ability. That doesn't mean that everyone can do everything equally as well, it doesn't mean that everyone should have the same job or that success is evil. But even people who are not qualified to be engineers should be able to at least live normal lives without the threat of extreme poverty. They should be able to find housing. They shouldn't be put in situations where they're frightened of their local police. Equality means that Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness belongs to everyone, regardless of where you were born or what other people think about the color of your skin. So we're not looking to get rid of success, be we are looking to build basic social safety nets that guarantee that people are not left behind or discarded by society just because a company doesn't think they're useful enough to deserve a livable wage. And yeah, that applies to intellectually disabled and differently abled communities as well. Being born with a learning disability is not a good reason for someone to be homeless. Those people also deserve dignity and a place in society.
breakyerself 5y ago
Yeah saying systemic racism is to whites as nazism is to Jews is pretty damned godwinny
watwut 5y ago
> That leads to the belief that the persistent differences in life outcomes must be caused by oppression. ... Not to get all Godwinny but that's also how 1930's Germans saw Jews. That is not what Nazi Germany believed. Also, coincidentally, German Jews were not more rich then average, there was no persistent difference like that. They were lower middle class that clustered in the few cities. Portion of them were refugees from Eastern Europe. Also, Germany had actually very small Jewish minority which was very integrated.

breakyerself 5y ago

I mean really. Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic? The laziness comes first. The excuse is crafted after the fact. If it wasnt that they'd claim to have some other disadvantage or problem.

JamesBarney 5y ago
A lot of psychotherapy is convincing individuals that they are in control of their actions and can decide how they react to and influence their environment. A lot of what we're teaching now is the opposite. It's like anti-CBT. Teach everyone they are helpless against the nefarious powers that be.
- breakyerself 5y ago
  There needs to be nuance for sure. People are still responsible for their own actions and the only way to guarantee you wont succeed is to not try. At the same time there is systemic unfairness both in the legacy of racism that has created inequality and in how society operates to this very day and I don't know how you solve those problems if you don't address them. The status quo is not acceptable to myself or a lot of other people
  - esyir 5y ago
    You're missing the point. The current narrative of systemic racism and the victimhood culture it creates isnt helping, it's exacerbating the issues and reinforcing itself. By conditioning people into believing that an outside force is the primary, if not only factor impacting their lack of success, you demotivate them from trying to adjust other factors that could improve their situation. The issue isn't that we address racism, it's that racism has become the end-all rationalisation for any deficiency at the individual level.
    - breakyerself 5y ago
      You seem to be missing my point. There ARE systemic disadvantages to being black. I get that you're of the opinion that telling people about racial inequality can demotivate them and make them feel fatalistic about their futures, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment to the degree this is the case and you seem to think there is no room for nuance here. We must stop talking about this immediately. People are too simple to understand that there is still some unfairness that needs to be resolved, but that they should do their best regardless. No we must lie to them and tell them the system is fair and through their ignorance they will magically overcome the disadvantages they face. You seem to think fear of systemic racism is a bigger obstacle to the success of black people than actual systemic racism and I just think that's absurd. Your basic premise that fear of institutional racism can be demotivating is valid and worth consideration. You're elevating it to the root cause of all problems is absurd. A black job applicant will receive half as many callbacks for job interviews compared to an identically qualified white applicant. There are little obstacles like that all over our society. Can they be overcome through tenacity and perseverance? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't work to fix that %#@#? Hell No!