9 ms·

Maybe I am getting old but I find “starting fresh” to be extremely expensive. I recently had to do this with my work MacBook which cannot restore from Time Mac

by mulmen 6y ago

Maybe I am getting old but I find “starting fresh” to be extremely expensive. I recently had to do this with my work MacBook which cannot restore from Time Machine for... reasons. I don’t know what settings I changed six months or a year or four years ago. I just know that my mouse should scroll that way, not this way. Time Machine makes sure these settings persist between disasters so I don’t generally try to track them. Historically upgrades maintained the settings where they make sense. Over time my environment adapted to my preference. But with the recent more drastic changes in Big Sur (and my fresh start) I find myself constantly having to re-learn really basic things like how to manage notifications. What used to be one click is three, or gestures that used to do one thing (drag right to dismiss) now do something unexpected (dismiss all notifications for an app). I don’t know how much of this is a setting and how much is just new behavior. It has been an infuriating experience. I don’t even know how to use my computer and I feel powerless. I also have very little motivation to learn the “new” way because I know it will just change again in a year. So the time I invest now will be wasted. It’s extremely demoralizing. One of the hardest things I do during the day is try to navigate my desktop environment. I have an adversarial relationship with my MacBook. There’s very little cognitive energy left to do my actual job. I don’t feel like it is improving, my computer is just in my way.

D13Fd 6y ago
Honestly that is kind of weird. I just re-imaged my Macbook Pro laptop this week, to completely remove some super invasive exam-taking software that I had to install for a licensing exam. The whole thing was very painless. I keep all of my data in one folder. I copied that folder, and copied some preferences for apps that don't sync to a folder (e.g., VS Code) to an external SSD. I booted into recovery mode, wiped the disk, and re-installed Mac OS. Then I copied my folder back and re-did my settings. The whole thing took a couple of hours, although a lot of that was babysitting the installs etc. while doing other things. I definitely wouldn't put it into the "extremely expensive" bucket in terms of time spent.
- mulmen 6y ago
  The expense comes in having to re-learn basic actions or go find a setting. My job takes longer to perform now because I have to stop and re-learn simple things that used to be instinctive, such as dismissing notifications and looking at icons or changing the direction my mouse scrolls.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    This is very 'unhacker' advice, but I generally learn to love defaults. I also think a lot about sane defaults when working on/deploying software to customers myself. I choose what systems to use in part based on how good the defaults are. The closer you are to accepting defaults the easier your life is. Obviously there are exceptions, but things like mouse scroll direction? Just learn to love the new one.
    - Pokepokalypse 6y ago
      >This is very 'unhacker' advice, but I generally learn to love defaults There's a lot of wisdom in this advice: the more time you spend messing with settings to customize the UX; the less repeatable this configuration is, and the harder it is to get a new system back up and running. Also: what's "hacker" is working on many many different systems, and being able to at least minimally adapt to each different system's set of defaults, so you can remain productive. (and for me, this means absolutely forgetting all about one platform's take on hot-keys, shortcuts, and setting up aliases). Mouse-scroll direction? I can't abide the "reverse" (scroll down to go up), and that's one thing I'm not ever going to let slide on a new system.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - fossuser 6y ago
        Yeah - I think we have the same perspective. On mouse-scroll direction, the 'reverse' is actually the way the content moves (if you imagine your hand on the screen). I came around to thinking this makes more sense than the direction the scroll bar moves, but it was weird at first.
bayindirh 6y ago
> Maybe I am getting old but I find “starting fresh” to be extremely expensive. I used to think like that, then I got a new mirrorless camera, which has a ton of settings with a menu which it feels like an open world. Then, I stopped worrying about setting things the way exactly I want. Instead, I started to change things I dislike. This brings two advantages from my point of view. First, it doesn't feel overwhelming; two, it's really a smooth way of learning new things or relearning things in the new way. I also run a micro server on a SBC. I fed up with the Ubuntu installation running on it and decided to migrate to Debian. I got two-three essential files (basically fstab, dnsmasq config files), and nuked the card. It was running in less than 15 minutes. I made a lot of small changes after that, but it was much smoother and nicer. Since I was not in a rush, I made the changes calmly and enthusiastically. Now, that thing works 10x better than Ubuntu. No need to rush, just solve a single thing in one go, and you won't believe how far you can go in very short time. Of course, this is my two cents and YMMV.
- mulmen 6y ago
  Ok but it sounds like your new camera is actually better. My new MacOS is just the same, or slightly worse. The changes in Big Sur don't solve any problems I actually have. Notifications are just more fiddly. Common actions are no longer prominently available, they are hidden behind hovers and tiny buttons, or simply gone. The interface uses more space and provides less information.
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    Strange. I’m using macOS for ~12 years now and Big Sur is not worse for me. I’m not trying to say you’re wrong. On the contrary, since I don’t use macOS that deeply (I’m a Linux guy mainly), not feeling the change for worse is intriguing for me.
    - mulmen 6y ago
      Disruptive changes to me personally in Big Sur: 1) They changed keyboard shortcut and navigation behavior, I now have to use twice as many keystrokes to navigate Mail than I did before. Some keyboard navigation options are now impossible. 2) Messages was rewritten for Catalyst and is far more unstable. Keyboard navigation is impossible. 3) Notification buttons and behavior. This now requires hovers and the gestures do different things than they did before. 4) Application icon shape and location. Mail has buttons moved around and the icons are different. Functionality is basically the same but muscle memory is reset. 5) Window title bars are bigger and application minimum sizes are larger but fewer options are available, requiring more clicks to get to nested functionality, if it is even available. My 16” screen on Big Sur now shows as much information as my 13” screen on Catalina. They are small changes but they are still changes. Small enough that the functionality is basically the same but big enough I have to re-learn it, and for no benefit to myself.
Pokepokalypse 6y ago
I used to do this on a weekly basis with my Windows desktops (95, 98, NT, XP, and 7 was the last one I bothered with). I used various tools to automate this process, (nLite was a good one), and wrote scripts to perform application setup (back in the bad old days before chocolatey). This had huge benefits in terms of maintaining a very performant Windows desktop. Then, I also baked-in my security configurations with another set of scripts. So it was always in a consistent configuration, (even if I had to "temporarily" disable something that was blocking me or broke something, I could always return to my "known-good-configuration"). I've also done the same with my linux systems. Mac OS X has always been curiously resistant to full automation, however. I know some people have done it; but there's something about this ecosystem that makes it very difficult; and I kind of think that's by-design, (to thwart the hackintosh people). I think it would be extremely valuable to be able to do this on Mac OS X; because customizing the OS is central to being able to get a good productive user-experience (especially for power-users), and I'm often stymied trying to accomplish this in a repeatable manner, on Mac OS X.
hesk 6y ago
I can relate. I went through a clean install recently because my last was about 5 years ago and I wanted to start fresh instead of installing from a Time Machine backup. I had a checklist from last time in my notes and remembered that it only took a few hours and then the system was set. This time it took much longer. Maybe because I went from Mojave to Big Sur in one go. So now I've started a small project where I automate as much as possible, using defaults and/or Plistbuddy to edit macOS configuration settings, install dotfiles using GNU stow, profiles for network settings, and just copying files around.
jorl17 6y ago
I have churned through three macs since 2012 and have never once installed fresh. Time machine has helped me move between them. At one point I had to temporarily move back to an old one while the other one was being fixed, and I did the exact same thing (I experienced some hiccups with brew packages that were no longer compatible due to missing CPU optimizations on the old mac). I periodically clean my mac, though. Remove stale configuration files, cleanup apps, etc. I also have a bunch of stuff written down, as well as scripts, to help with installing new macs (to help my friends reinstall theirs). I'm very nitpicky about configurations and apps. I've got dozens of apps and micro-apps I use. which are very modified. These include the typical BetterTouchTool, Alfred, Amphetamine, but also smaller apps like Audio Balance. My terminal is heavily customized, both in terms of iTerm 2 settings, but also in terms of my zsh config, custom commands, etc. I'm sure I'd be able re-create my environment within days, but these would be very rough days....and time machine just works! I don't need anything else.
- dnh44 6y ago
  With Big Sur I finally did my first fresh install of macOS since Jaguar (10.2). It took me an entire weekend and while it’s nice to have a clean out I think I’ll just do a time machine restore when I finally get an M1 Mac.
  - jorl17 6y ago
    Ah, I expect that this is where things might go south! Since many apps are built for x86/x64, I'm sure that when you migrate to the M1 mac, they will run in intel "emulation" mode or just crash/fail! I'm not talking about apps that you got from the app store or similar, but, rather, things you installed via homebrew! When I temporarily had to move back from a more recent (~2014) mac to an older one (~2012), I got bitten by that becuse some apps installed via homebrew had been built from source with optimizations that the older machine didn't support. It was easy to fix, since I could just reinstall them as I saw them breaking, but it was an annoyance nonetheless.
    - dnh44 5y ago
josephd79 6y ago
Dot files are your friend.
- mulmen 6y ago
  Please. Show me the dotfile in Big Sur that changes Messages.app to the Catalina binary. MacOS does not use dotflies to manage OS settings. Dotfiles require a separate mechanism to replicate.
bartvk 6y ago
Whenever you change a setting, look up the corresponding “defaults write” command. Put them into a script. Then run that whenever you got a new machine.
- mulmen 6y ago
  This misses the point to an extent that it is honestly kind of insulting. I am aware of how to manage settings, that is not hard or interesting. KLVTZ suggested reverting to defaults on a regular (~annual) basis. I pointed out how changes to my desktop environment are disruptive, regardless of the reason (OS version bumps or revert-to-default). Settings do not change fundamental OS behavior. I can't set my notifications in Big Sur to "Catalina".

by mulmen 6y ago

D13Fd 6y ago

Honestly that is kind of weird. I just re-imaged my Macbook Pro laptop this week, to completely remove some super invasive exam-taking software that I had to install for a licensing exam. The whole thing was very painless. I keep all of my data in one folder. I copied that folder, and copied some preferences for apps that don't sync to a folder (e.g., VS Code) to an external SSD. I booted into recovery mode, wiped the disk, and re-installed Mac OS. Then I copied my folder back and re-did my settings. The whole thing took a couple of hours, although a lot of that was babysitting the installs etc. while doing other things. I definitely wouldn't put it into the "extremely expensive" bucket in terms of time spent.

mulmen 6y ago
The expense comes in having to re-learn basic actions or go find a setting. My job takes longer to perform now because I have to stop and re-learn simple things that used to be instinctive, such as dismissing notifications and looking at icons or changing the direction my mouse scrolls.
- fossuser 6y ago
  This is very 'unhacker' advice, but I generally learn to love defaults. I also think a lot about sane defaults when working on/deploying software to customers myself. I choose what systems to use in part based on how good the defaults are. The closer you are to accepting defaults the easier your life is. Obviously there are exceptions, but things like mouse scroll direction? Just learn to love the new one.
  - Pokepokalypse 6y ago
    >This is very 'unhacker' advice, but I generally learn to love defaults There's a lot of wisdom in this advice: the more time you spend messing with settings to customize the UX; the less repeatable this configuration is, and the harder it is to get a new system back up and running. Also: what's "hacker" is working on many many different systems, and being able to at least minimally adapt to each different system's set of defaults, so you can remain productive. (and for me, this means absolutely forgetting all about one platform's take on hot-keys, shortcuts, and setting up aliases). Mouse-scroll direction? I can't abide the "reverse" (scroll down to go up), and that's one thing I'm not ever going to let slide on a new system.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - fossuser 6y ago
      Yeah - I think we have the same perspective. On mouse-scroll direction, the 'reverse' is actually the way the content moves (if you imagine your hand on the screen). I came around to thinking this makes more sense than the direction the scroll bar moves, but it was weird at first.

bayindirh 6y ago

> Maybe I am getting old but I find “starting fresh” to be extremely expensive. I used to think like that, then I got a new mirrorless camera, which has a ton of settings with a menu which it feels like an open world. Then, I stopped worrying about setting things the way exactly I want. Instead, I started to change things I dislike. This brings two advantages from my point of view. First, it doesn't feel overwhelming; two, it's really a smooth way of learning new things or relearning things in the new way. I also run a micro server on a SBC. I fed up with the Ubuntu installation running on it and decided to migrate to Debian. I got two-three essential files (basically fstab, dnsmasq config files), and nuked the card. It was running in less than 15 minutes. I made a lot of small changes after that, but it was much smoother and nicer. Since I was not in a rush, I made the changes calmly and enthusiastically. Now, that thing works 10x better than Ubuntu. No need to rush, just solve a single thing in one go, and you won't believe how far you can go in very short time. Of course, this is my two cents and YMMV.

mulmen 6y ago
Ok but it sounds like your new camera is actually better. My new MacOS is just the same, or slightly worse. The changes in Big Sur don't solve any problems I actually have. Notifications are just more fiddly. Common actions are no longer prominently available, they are hidden behind hovers and tiny buttons, or simply gone. The interface uses more space and provides less information.
- bayindirh 6y ago
  Strange. I’m using macOS for ~12 years now and Big Sur is not worse for me. I’m not trying to say you’re wrong. On the contrary, since I don’t use macOS that deeply (I’m a Linux guy mainly), not feeling the change for worse is intriguing for me.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    Disruptive changes to me personally in Big Sur: 1) They changed keyboard shortcut and navigation behavior, I now have to use twice as many keystrokes to navigate Mail than I did before. Some keyboard navigation options are now impossible. 2) Messages was rewritten for Catalyst and is far more unstable. Keyboard navigation is impossible. 3) Notification buttons and behavior. This now requires hovers and the gestures do different things than they did before. 4) Application icon shape and location. Mail has buttons moved around and the icons are different. Functionality is basically the same but muscle memory is reset. 5) Window title bars are bigger and application minimum sizes are larger but fewer options are available, requiring more clicks to get to nested functionality, if it is even available. My 16” screen on Big Sur now shows as much information as my 13” screen on Catalina. They are small changes but they are still changes. Small enough that the functionality is basically the same but big enough I have to re-learn it, and for no benefit to myself.

Pokepokalypse 6y ago

I used to do this on a weekly basis with my Windows desktops (95, 98, NT, XP, and 7 was the last one I bothered with). I used various tools to automate this process, (nLite was a good one), and wrote scripts to perform application setup (back in the bad old days before chocolatey). This had huge benefits in terms of maintaining a very performant Windows desktop. Then, I also baked-in my security configurations with another set of scripts. So it was always in a consistent configuration, (even if I had to "temporarily" disable something that was blocking me or broke something, I could always return to my "known-good-configuration"). I've also done the same with my linux systems. Mac OS X has always been curiously resistant to full automation, however. I know some people have done it; but there's something about this ecosystem that makes it very difficult; and I kind of think that's by-design, (to thwart the hackintosh people). I think it would be extremely valuable to be able to do this on Mac OS X; because customizing the OS is central to being able to get a good productive user-experience (especially for power-users), and I'm often stymied trying to accomplish this in a repeatable manner, on Mac OS X.

hesk 6y ago

I can relate. I went through a clean install recently because my last was about 5 years ago and I wanted to start fresh instead of installing from a Time Machine backup. I had a checklist from last time in my notes and remembered that it only took a few hours and then the system was set. This time it took much longer. Maybe because I went from Mojave to Big Sur in one go. So now I've started a small project where I automate as much as possible, using defaults and/or Plistbuddy to edit macOS configuration settings, install dotfiles using GNU stow, profiles for network settings, and just copying files around.

jorl17 6y ago

I have churned through three macs since 2012 and have never once installed fresh. Time machine has helped me move between them. At one point I had to temporarily move back to an old one while the other one was being fixed, and I did the exact same thing (I experienced some hiccups with brew packages that were no longer compatible due to missing CPU optimizations on the old mac). I periodically clean my mac, though. Remove stale configuration files, cleanup apps, etc. I also have a bunch of stuff written down, as well as scripts, to help with installing new macs (to help my friends reinstall theirs). I'm very nitpicky about configurations and apps. I've got dozens of apps and micro-apps I use. which are very modified. These include the typical BetterTouchTool, Alfred, Amphetamine, but also smaller apps like Audio Balance. My terminal is heavily customized, both in terms of iTerm 2 settings, but also in terms of my zsh config, custom commands, etc. I'm sure I'd be able re-create my environment within days, but these would be very rough days....and time machine just works! I don't need anything else.

dnh44 6y ago
With Big Sur I finally did my first fresh install of macOS since Jaguar (10.2). It took me an entire weekend and while it’s nice to have a clean out I think I’ll just do a time machine restore when I finally get an M1 Mac.
- jorl17 6y ago
  Ah, I expect that this is where things might go south! Since many apps are built for x86/x64, I'm sure that when you migrate to the M1 mac, they will run in intel "emulation" mode or just crash/fail! I'm not talking about apps that you got from the app store or similar, but, rather, things you installed via homebrew! When I temporarily had to move back from a more recent (~2014) mac to an older one (~2012), I got bitten by that becuse some apps installed via homebrew had been built from source with optimizations that the older machine didn't support. It was easy to fix, since I could just reinstall them as I saw them breaking, but it was an annoyance nonetheless.
  - dnh44 5y ago

josephd79 6y ago

Dot files are your friend.

mulmen 6y ago
Please. Show me the dotfile in Big Sur that changes Messages.app to the Catalina binary. MacOS does not use dotflies to manage OS settings. Dotfiles require a separate mechanism to replicate.

bartvk 6y ago

Whenever you change a setting, look up the corresponding “defaults write” command. Put them into a script. Then run that whenever you got a new machine.

mulmen 6y ago
This misses the point to an extent that it is honestly kind of insulting. I am aware of how to manage settings, that is not hard or interesting. KLVTZ suggested reverting to defaults on a regular (~annual) basis. I pointed out how changes to my desktop environment are disruptive, regardless of the reason (OS version bumps or revert-to-default). Settings do not change fundamental OS behavior. I can't set my notifications in Big Sur to "Catalina".