5 ms·

It really is harder in the US. The standards are much higher in the US than anywhere else. The US only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical

It really is harder in the US. The standards are much higher in the US than anywhere else. The US only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools. And then on top of that, it is much harder to get into a medical school here in NA than practically anywhere else, except maybe India. I know that in the UK you can go directly from high school, meanwhile in the US & Canada you need a 515 MCAT, 3.7 GPA, and lab time to even get in to a mid-range school.

alistairSH 5y ago
The US only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools. That's absolutely not true. Foreign medical graduates do have to take the US board exams, complete a US-based residency, and possibly take additional courses to fill educational gaps, but they absolutely can practice in the US with a foreign medical degree.
- signal11 5y ago
  Here's an article that describes the pathway by which foreign doctors can get a medical license in the US: https://www.voanews.com/student-union/how-indian-doctors-get-medical-license-us https://www.voanews.com/student-union/how-indian-doctors-get... In brief, they have to sit the MLE (medical licensing exams), but the real hurdle is getting into a US-based residency program beforehand. In practice, this means only the best candidates tend to make it.
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  -> complete a US-based residency This is the kicker. There are incredibly difficult to get, they are incredibly stressful, and it's another 3-5 years of your life. If you allowed any non-us developers to practice in the US but you made them work a 5 year 80hr/week internship for 1/6th of what professional developers made first, that basically bans non-us developers from writing code in the U.S.
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    Absolutely. And that's due to AMA lobbying in the 90s. It doesn't have anything much to do with stringency of US medical licensing or ensuring quality and everything to do with existing MDs protecting their lucrative practices.
    - phobosanomaly 5y ago
      Practicing medicine must be lucrative because it costs an individual student around $240,000 in tuition for the M.D. itself, excluding cost of living. Doctors are made out to be predatory vultures, but unless they come from money they must undergo massive debt burdens that they are not able to even begin paying down the principal on until they're well-into their thirties. Imagine the feeling of taking out half-a-million dollars in student loans to cover both undergrad, and graduate-level training. After that look forward to your 80-hours a week of residency making below hourly minimum wage. [1] Make medical school free, and you'll have people lining up the door to practice for low-cost. Make it half-a-million pay-to-play, and you'll have people desperately clawing their way out of debt so that some day they can have a family and own a home after a decade of hellish training. Cut the docs some slack. They're taking on unimaginable debt burdens for a job that often isn't in the same universe of cushiness as something at FAANG (inspecting that anal fissure in the ED at 3am with perks including, well, hospital food), but involves an tremendous service to society. [1] https://www.mdlinx.com/physiciansense/is-it-better-to-be-a-doctor-now-than-it-was-50-years-ago/ https://www.mdlinx.com/physiciansense/is-it-better-to-be-a-d...
laputan_machine 5y ago
You are either deliberately misleading people or are ignorant of the UK education system. Highschool in the uk ends at 16, you graduate with GCSEs. After this there are 2 extra years of education (compulsory in England), you start university at 18 (at the youngest). Medical schools are competitive and require strong a-level results, typically 3 As (the second highest grade, after A*) [0]. It's a 4 year degree, you then go onto train for another 5 years as a junior doctor. There is a _lot_ of training for UK doctors. [0] https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/2021/01428/mbchb-medicine/entry-requirements/#course-profile https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/202... [1] https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/training-doctor https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/train...
- signal11 5y ago
  From the link numbered [1] above, medical school in the UK is normally five years long. Followed by 2 years of Foundation training, and 5-8 years of specialist training, or 3 years if you go into general practice. Note that the US education system is more expensive though, so becoming a doctor costs more.
- ameister14 5y ago
  > You are either deliberately misleading people or are ignorant of the UK education system. I don't think either is necessarily the case - he isn't saying it's easy to become a doctor in the UK, he's saying it's easier than in the US, and that's sort of true, if not by all that much. In the US you also start university at 18 - med school is a 4 year degree you must have completed your undergraduate degree to begin, then you go on to train for 3-7 years as a resident, depending on specialization. Then maybe more for a fellowship. That said, I've got both doctors trained in the UK and in the US in my immediate family, I don't really see much of a distinction in difficulty of training to be honest but I'm not a doctor myself so what do I know.
- google234123 5y ago
  22.5% of students get 3 As or better so that doesn't sound very impressive to me. US med schools are much more competitive than that.
tephra 5y ago
Only accepting doctors who went to medical school in the u.s or Canada is not the same as having higher standards (necessarily).
mr_woozy 5y ago
>The US only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools. The fuck are you on about? Why would you think this?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > The fuck are you on about? Why would you think this? This is the high-brow content that brings me back to HN time and again.
- sebmellen 5y ago
  Ok, in practice the US basically only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools.
lr1970 5y ago
> The US only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools. This is factually incorrect. There are tons of doctors that graduated from European, Indian and Chinese medical schools. To practice medicine in the USA they need to pass the ECFMG tests (US graduates take similar USMLE tests) and then complete medical residency. The last part is the hardest, for the medical residency admission offices are routinely discriminating against the foreign medical graduates.
- google234123 5y ago
  Why shouldn't domestic medical students have priority over foreign medical graduates?
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    Why should they? If I take the same tests as US medical students and pass, am I not at least as good as they are?
  - djdjdjdjdj 5y ago
    Global market? It's much easier for an us citizen anyway as it is easier for an employee.
rscho 5y ago
I'm european, never set foot in a us or canadian medical school but worked in Boston. So no, it's not as set in stone as you think it is.
djdjdjdjdj 5y ago
In Germany the grades you need to study medicine is really high. You need the best grade of 1.0. you can wait if you just have something like 1.3 Do you have sources which shows your argument?

alistairSH 5y ago

The US only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools. That's absolutely not true. Foreign medical graduates do have to take the US board exams, complete a US-based residency, and possibly take additional courses to fill educational gaps, but they absolutely can practice in the US with a foreign medical degree.

signal11 5y ago
Here's an article that describes the pathway by which foreign doctors can get a medical license in the US: https://www.voanews.com/student-union/how-indian-doctors-get-medical-license-us https://www.voanews.com/student-union/how-indian-doctors-get... In brief, they have to sit the MLE (medical licensing exams), but the real hurdle is getting into a US-based residency program beforehand. In practice, this means only the best candidates tend to make it.
JamesBarney 5y ago
-> complete a US-based residency This is the kicker. There are incredibly difficult to get, they are incredibly stressful, and it's another 3-5 years of your life. If you allowed any non-us developers to practice in the US but you made them work a 5 year 80hr/week internship for 1/6th of what professional developers made first, that basically bans non-us developers from writing code in the U.S.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Absolutely. And that's due to AMA lobbying in the 90s. It doesn't have anything much to do with stringency of US medical licensing or ensuring quality and everything to do with existing MDs protecting their lucrative practices.
  - phobosanomaly 5y ago
    Practicing medicine must be lucrative because it costs an individual student around $240,000 in tuition for the M.D. itself, excluding cost of living. Doctors are made out to be predatory vultures, but unless they come from money they must undergo massive debt burdens that they are not able to even begin paying down the principal on until they're well-into their thirties. Imagine the feeling of taking out half-a-million dollars in student loans to cover both undergrad, and graduate-level training. After that look forward to your 80-hours a week of residency making below hourly minimum wage. [1] Make medical school free, and you'll have people lining up the door to practice for low-cost. Make it half-a-million pay-to-play, and you'll have people desperately clawing their way out of debt so that some day they can have a family and own a home after a decade of hellish training. Cut the docs some slack. They're taking on unimaginable debt burdens for a job that often isn't in the same universe of cushiness as something at FAANG (inspecting that anal fissure in the ED at 3am with perks including, well, hospital food), but involves an tremendous service to society. [1] https://www.mdlinx.com/physiciansense/is-it-better-to-be-a-doctor-now-than-it-was-50-years-ago/ https://www.mdlinx.com/physiciansense/is-it-better-to-be-a-d...

laputan_machine 5y ago

You are either deliberately misleading people or are ignorant of the UK education system. Highschool in the uk ends at 16, you graduate with GCSEs. After this there are 2 extra years of education (compulsory in England), you start university at 18 (at the youngest). Medical schools are competitive and require strong a-level results, typically 3 As (the second highest grade, after A*) [0]. It's a 4 year degree, you then go onto train for another 5 years as a junior doctor. There is a _lot_ of training for UK doctors. [0] https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/2021/01428/mbchb-medicine/entry-requirements/#course-profile https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/202... [1] https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/training-doctor https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/train...

signal11 5y ago
From the link numbered [1] above, medical school in the UK is normally five years long. Followed by 2 years of Foundation training, and 5-8 years of specialist training, or 3 years if you go into general practice. Note that the US education system is more expensive though, so becoming a doctor costs more.
ameister14 5y ago
> You are either deliberately misleading people or are ignorant of the UK education system. I don't think either is necessarily the case - he isn't saying it's easy to become a doctor in the UK, he's saying it's easier than in the US, and that's sort of true, if not by all that much. In the US you also start university at 18 - med school is a 4 year degree you must have completed your undergraduate degree to begin, then you go on to train for 3-7 years as a resident, depending on specialization. Then maybe more for a fellowship. That said, I've got both doctors trained in the UK and in the US in my immediate family, I don't really see much of a distinction in difficulty of training to be honest but I'm not a doctor myself so what do I know.
google234123 5y ago
22.5% of students get 3 As or better so that doesn't sound very impressive to me. US med schools are much more competitive than that.

tephra 5y ago

Only accepting doctors who went to medical school in the u.s or Canada is not the same as having higher standards (necessarily).

mr_woozy 5y ago

>The US only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools. The fuck are you on about? Why would you think this?

throwaway894345 5y ago
> The fuck are you on about? Why would you think this? This is the high-brow content that brings me back to HN time and again.
sebmellen 5y ago
Ok, in practice the US basically only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools.

lr1970 5y ago

> The US only accepts doctors who went to Canadian or American medical schools. This is factually incorrect. There are tons of doctors that graduated from European, Indian and Chinese medical schools. To practice medicine in the USA they need to pass the ECFMG tests (US graduates take similar USMLE tests) and then complete medical residency. The last part is the hardest, for the medical residency admission offices are routinely discriminating against the foreign medical graduates.

google234123 5y ago
Why shouldn't domestic medical students have priority over foreign medical graduates?
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Why should they? If I take the same tests as US medical students and pass, am I not at least as good as they are?
- djdjdjdjdj 5y ago
  Global market? It's much easier for an us citizen anyway as it is easier for an employee.

rscho 5y ago

I'm european, never set foot in a us or canadian medical school but worked in Boston. So no, it's not as set in stone as you think it is.

djdjdjdjdj 5y ago

In Germany the grades you need to study medicine is really high. You need the best grade of 1.0. you can wait if you just have something like 1.3 Do you have sources which shows your argument?