4 ms·

It is really useful for some applications, and I think it is especially useful for keeping fiat money in check. Now, I can deflect from fiat (at some costs, obv

by gtt 5y ago

It is really useful for some applications, and I think it is especially useful for keeping fiat money in check. Now, I can deflect from fiat (at some costs, obviously).

asdff 5y ago
why not invest in a commodity to hedge against fiat? You know, something real and economically useful...
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  Oh, and depend on the GOVERNMENT to protect my commodities contracts with fiat courts of law, or my physical commodities with their jackbooted thugs?
- gtt 5y ago
  Harder to store, transfer, many commodities are perishable, bulky, heavy, etc.
  - asdff 5y ago
    When you buy commodities for investment they aren't exactly shipping trucks of corn to your house
    - gtt 5y ago
      Of course, but you are not actually owning those commodities, then. You are not buying them and this is the point -- with bitcoin you are really in control.
    - disruptalot 5y ago
      That's strange, how do you know it's real and you own it? With my bitcoin, I can verify that I received it and that no one except myself has access to that specific portion of the supply. And then I can even transact it whenever I like without the involvement of any custodian!
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        You can verify that you have a key that corresponds to a specific quantity of Bitcoin. What you cannot verify is how much you can exchange it for. This is no different than owning a share of a commodity ETF. Transacting via custodian has literally never once gotten in my way. Has it for you?
        disruptalot 5y ago
        > What you cannot verify is how much you can exchange it for. Yes the price of assets are decided in a free market. So what point are you making exactly? Clearly in every other aspect, bitcoin is superior. In fact, bitcoin is one of the only assets that can be traded in the most free market environments possible, next to cash. > Transacting via custodian has literally never once gotten in my way. Has it for you? Yes it has. And it has for hundreds of millions people around the world. I come from a country that's under heavy sanctions, banks will refuse to bank you or will shutdown your account for no apparent reason. You're marked as a risky client anywhere you go that touches money and have to put up with extra checks. Whoever you bank with has never had outages? They've never kept funds on hold pending checks? You haven't had to chase up a every department because your wire transfer didn't arrive? The list goes on. If not then good for you, but you're in the absolute tiny minority.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    When you learn about commodity-backed ETFs and mutual funds you're going to be really excited :)
    - gtt 5y ago
      Not if I want to really own real thing.
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        I can't imagine why you would want to haha. I don't really want to own Apple, I just want price action to the upside. Owning shares in a commodity ETF is no less real than owning a bitcoin.
- ExisterMr 5y ago
  Most people on earth don't have the ability to just invest in traditional commodity markets as a hedge. Most people on earth DO have a mobile device, which grants them permissionless and censorship resistant access to the bitcoin network. This access allows for an escape hatch against abusive regimes who debase their country's fiat currency.
- disruptalot 5y ago
  So I take it you are not willing to accept bitcoin for free since it's not "real and economically useful"? Commodities don't have a fixed supply, they are not transportable, you can't actually own them. You can't verify them. You can't transact them easily. Real and economically useful, bitcoin or commodities. which is which?
  - cool_dude85 5y ago
    >Real and economically useful, bitcoin or commodities. which is which? Commodities are the ones that can be both real and economically useful, to answer your question. It's raining right now where I am. The roof of my house is keeping me dry. Can a bitcoin do the same?
    - disruptalot 5y ago
      The property you're asserting is physicality not reality or usefulness.
- waterhouse 5y ago
  You realize what that would entail? Imagine a horde of wallstreetbets people buying huge amounts of dry wheat, causing the price to go through the roof and/or wheat becoming unavailable in some areas. Or, when they sell, a bunch of farmers' revenues dropping and making them go bankrupt. You really want that? Isn't it better if the chaos is contained to goods that aren't really important?
slg 5y ago
The "cryptocurrencies are really useful" argument is now equivalent to the "gold has intrinsic value" argument. Technically they are both right, but the current price is so out of line with the actual value generated by those use cases as to be basically irrelevant. Both derive the majority of their value from people purchasing it as an speculative investment.
- gtt 5y ago
  Gold is (relatively) easy to store, transfer, hard to obtain, really limited supply -- the qualities that make commodity good money. Uselessness of gold is actually useful here -- transactions with it does not distort markets. Imagine if we used coffee beans as "gold" -- then changes in monetary velocity would impact consumers, who would be forced to stash it.
  - slg 5y ago
    So real estate?
    - gtt 5y ago
      Hard to transport.
      - slg 5y ago
        Sorry, the brevity of that comment apparently didn't convey my point well enough. Real estate is an example of what you theorized would happen with coffee beans. It is a useful resource that is also used for speculative investment. It is something everyone needs, but as a society we have decided its price should also always be increasing. This has a net negative impact on society. Bitcoin existing doesn't stop people from speculatively investing in real estate, so I don't think people will just start speculating on coffee beans or something similar if Bitcoin goes away.
- waterhouse 5y ago
  Would it be better if people poured loads of money into something useful as a speculative investment? Imagine if the price of, say, steel went up by a huge amount due to people hedging against currency. Or housing—I hear this has actually happened.

by gtt 5y ago

It is really useful for some applications, and I think it is especially useful for keeping fiat money in check. Now, I can deflect from fiat (at some costs, obviously).

asdff 5y ago

why not invest in a commodity to hedge against fiat? You know, something real and economically useful...

cool_dude85 5y ago
Oh, and depend on the GOVERNMENT to protect my commodities contracts with fiat courts of law, or my physical commodities with their jackbooted thugs?
gtt 5y ago
Harder to store, transfer, many commodities are perishable, bulky, heavy, etc.
- asdff 5y ago
  When you buy commodities for investment they aren't exactly shipping trucks of corn to your house
  - gtt 5y ago
    Of course, but you are not actually owning those commodities, then. You are not buying them and this is the point -- with bitcoin you are really in control.
  - disruptalot 5y ago
    That's strange, how do you know it's real and you own it? With my bitcoin, I can verify that I received it and that no one except myself has access to that specific portion of the supply. And then I can even transact it whenever I like without the involvement of any custodian!
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      You can verify that you have a key that corresponds to a specific quantity of Bitcoin. What you cannot verify is how much you can exchange it for. This is no different than owning a share of a commodity ETF. Transacting via custodian has literally never once gotten in my way. Has it for you?
      - disruptalot 5y ago
        > What you cannot verify is how much you can exchange it for. Yes the price of assets are decided in a free market. So what point are you making exactly? Clearly in every other aspect, bitcoin is superior. In fact, bitcoin is one of the only assets that can be traded in the most free market environments possible, next to cash. > Transacting via custodian has literally never once gotten in my way. Has it for you? Yes it has. And it has for hundreds of millions people around the world. I come from a country that's under heavy sanctions, banks will refuse to bank you or will shutdown your account for no apparent reason. You're marked as a risky client anywhere you go that touches money and have to put up with extra checks. Whoever you bank with has never had outages? They've never kept funds on hold pending checks? You haven't had to chase up a every department because your wire transfer didn't arrive? The list goes on. If not then good for you, but you're in the absolute tiny minority.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  When you learn about commodity-backed ETFs and mutual funds you're going to be really excited :)
  - gtt 5y ago
    Not if I want to really own real thing.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      I can't imagine why you would want to haha. I don't really want to own Apple, I just want price action to the upside. Owning shares in a commodity ETF is no less real than owning a bitcoin.
ExisterMr 5y ago
Most people on earth don't have the ability to just invest in traditional commodity markets as a hedge. Most people on earth DO have a mobile device, which grants them permissionless and censorship resistant access to the bitcoin network. This access allows for an escape hatch against abusive regimes who debase their country's fiat currency.
disruptalot 5y ago
So I take it you are not willing to accept bitcoin for free since it's not "real and economically useful"? Commodities don't have a fixed supply, they are not transportable, you can't actually own them. You can't verify them. You can't transact them easily. Real and economically useful, bitcoin or commodities. which is which?
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  >Real and economically useful, bitcoin or commodities. which is which? Commodities are the ones that can be both real and economically useful, to answer your question. It's raining right now where I am. The roof of my house is keeping me dry. Can a bitcoin do the same?
  - disruptalot 5y ago
    The property you're asserting is physicality not reality or usefulness.
waterhouse 5y ago
You realize what that would entail? Imagine a horde of wallstreetbets people buying huge amounts of dry wheat, causing the price to go through the roof and/or wheat becoming unavailable in some areas. Or, when they sell, a bunch of farmers' revenues dropping and making them go bankrupt. You really want that? Isn't it better if the chaos is contained to goods that aren't really important?

slg 5y ago

The "cryptocurrencies are really useful" argument is now equivalent to the "gold has intrinsic value" argument. Technically they are both right, but the current price is so out of line with the actual value generated by those use cases as to be basically irrelevant. Both derive the majority of their value from people purchasing it as an speculative investment.

gtt 5y ago
Gold is (relatively) easy to store, transfer, hard to obtain, really limited supply -- the qualities that make commodity good money. Uselessness of gold is actually useful here -- transactions with it does not distort markets. Imagine if we used coffee beans as "gold" -- then changes in monetary velocity would impact consumers, who would be forced to stash it.
- slg 5y ago
  So real estate?
  - gtt 5y ago
    Hard to transport.
    - slg 5y ago
      Sorry, the brevity of that comment apparently didn't convey my point well enough. Real estate is an example of what you theorized would happen with coffee beans. It is a useful resource that is also used for speculative investment. It is something everyone needs, but as a society we have decided its price should also always be increasing. This has a net negative impact on society. Bitcoin existing doesn't stop people from speculatively investing in real estate, so I don't think people will just start speculating on coffee beans or something similar if Bitcoin goes away.
waterhouse 5y ago
Would it be better if people poured loads of money into something useful as a speculative investment? Imagine if the price of, say, steel went up by a huge amount due to people hedging against currency. Or housing—I hear this has actually happened.