4 ms·

I think any discussion of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" needs to come with the caveat that the author (Jared Diamond) is widely criticized by the greater historical/

by ahoy 5y ago

I think any discussion of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" needs to come with the caveat that the author (Jared Diamond) is widely criticized by the greater historical/anthropological/poli-sci community for prioritizing narrative in his books over scientific accuracy. "Guns" is still a good read, as long as you don't stop there.

sthnblllII 5y ago
This is quite the caveat. "Its a good book, except that all the testable claims made are false". Shouldn't that discredit the untestable "narrative" claims? Guns Germs and Steel is a Talmudic exercise in making stuff up to support the author's biases. Its only usefulness is as an example of how to make a superficially convincing case for something totally wrong. https://www.bitchute.com/video/qvaxPH3ftUQ/ https://www.bitchute.com/video/qvaxPH3ftUQ/
- ghaff 5y ago
  That a degree of geographical determinism exists seems pretty clear. What's far less clear is that it was a simple as agriculture rose first on the Hilly Flanks. Game over. Why the West Rules for Now is IMO correct when it basically says "Of course, the various factors Diamond discussed played a role but they're not the whole story. The book then goes on to show (based on a lot of data) how the Western Core and the Eastern Core actually switched leadership positions back and forth over time. I think it's fair to characterize his position as it was always going to be one of those two, but the West achieve its position solely because it was first.
  - sthnblllII 5y ago
    >solely because it was first. Why didn't Babylon industrialize? Or China or Egypt or Persia or India or Ethiopia or the Inca or the Greeks or Romans or Arabs or Nubians or Zulu or Mississippians or Ottomans or or or or or. North-West Europeans did what we did because we chose to do the things necessary and others didn't. The only purpose of environmental determinism is to muddy the waters. If Africans had invented electricity and someone used specious arguments to belittle Africans by saying their accomplishment was nothing special because industrialization was inevitable in Africa because of how much rainfall they get you and I would recognize how racially motivated that is.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      You're stopping way ahead. Things are done for reasons. Why did Africans not invent electricty? Turkic peoples invented basic steam engines, so did the Greeks, why didn't they use them for anything? Ultimately the reasons for this are going to come back to material reality, ie, your surroundings.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - sthnblllII 5y ago
        Actually, the universe is a closed thermodynamic system so the course of history and all decisions ever made by humans in the past and the future were completely determined by the initial energy density fluctuations of the big bang. It logically follows that we should let all criminals out of prison immediately because their crimes were purely an inevitable consequence of their environment. No one can be "guilty" of a crime he did not chose to commit. Likewise everyone should be given the same amount of wealth because the amount of studying and hard work you do is not a virtue deserving of reward, but an inevitability. Time is an illusion. Volition does not exist for one may recursively ask "why" until time collapses into a simple parameter of the function describing the state of the universe. The fact that we experience time at all is a fluke, an irrelevant mystery.
finiteseries 5y ago
The same seems to go for Sapiens, albeit to a lesser degree, possibly as a result of being released more recently in 2015 vs the 90s. Jared Diamond is actually the cover quote for Sapiens looking at my copy!
- htcfx 5y ago
  Can you expand on or link to such criticisms of Sapiens?
  - finiteseries 5y ago
    The classic so far seems to be C.R. Hallpike from an anthropological angle [0] It’s 17 pages, but the general idea is basically ”whenever his facts are broadly correct they are not new, and whenever he tries to strike out on his own he often gets things wrong”. And just in case anyone boxes & dismisses this as anthropology = social science = progressive relativist criticism, Hallpike is an 83 year old Oxford type who recently spent 200 pages [1] being very angry at popular modern ideas about the realities of primitive society. [0] - http://www.hallpike.com/A%20review%20of%20Sapiens.pdf http://www.hallpike.com/A%20review%20of%20Sapiens.pdf [1] - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42109085-ship-of-fools https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42109085-ship-of-fools
    - JALTU 5y ago
      I appreciate these links, thank you. I wish there could/would be a point by point response to the criticisms from Yuval, however. Humans have a predictable tendency to undermine each other, so it would be nice to easily see the counterpoints to the issues raised by other scholars who certainly have incentives to defend their life's investment in their biases, too.
  - Ar-Curunir 5y ago
    As a scientist (not in anthropology), the feel of Sapiens was very unscientific. All assertions were made with minimum citation, and couched in "relevatory" language that always makes me feel that the author is hiding something. If you want Sapiens but without these problems, try "Against the Grain" by James C. Scott. Covers much of the same material, but with many more citations from reputed journals and academics.
Syzygies 5y ago
Yes, "Guns" is wildly entertaining. Why we stopped at domesticating horses: Donkeys are only mildly irritable. If a Zebra bites you in the thigh your only option is to shoot it. I sensed an intuitive truth to the instructions on manipulating people. And I sensed that Karl Rove was following this playbook. Whether it has scientific veracity, to my dismay it worked for him. As for "Sapiens", I love how it's translated into so many languages. There's even an Audible version in Catalan. It's so much easier to learn a language when you know what the text is about to say.

by ahoy 5y ago

sthnblllII 5y ago

This is quite the caveat. "Its a good book, except that all the testable claims made are false". Shouldn't that discredit the untestable "narrative" claims? Guns Germs and Steel is a Talmudic exercise in making stuff up to support the author's biases. Its only usefulness is as an example of how to make a superficially convincing case for something totally wrong. https://www.bitchute.com/video/qvaxPH3ftUQ/ https://www.bitchute.com/video/qvaxPH3ftUQ/

ghaff 5y ago
That a degree of geographical determinism exists seems pretty clear. What's far less clear is that it was a simple as agriculture rose first on the Hilly Flanks. Game over. Why the West Rules for Now is IMO correct when it basically says "Of course, the various factors Diamond discussed played a role but they're not the whole story. The book then goes on to show (based on a lot of data) how the Western Core and the Eastern Core actually switched leadership positions back and forth over time. I think it's fair to characterize his position as it was always going to be one of those two, but the West achieve its position solely because it was first.
- sthnblllII 5y ago
  >solely because it was first. Why didn't Babylon industrialize? Or China or Egypt or Persia or India or Ethiopia or the Inca or the Greeks or Romans or Arabs or Nubians or Zulu or Mississippians or Ottomans or or or or or. North-West Europeans did what we did because we chose to do the things necessary and others didn't. The only purpose of environmental determinism is to muddy the waters. If Africans had invented electricity and someone used specious arguments to belittle Africans by saying their accomplishment was nothing special because industrialization was inevitable in Africa because of how much rainfall they get you and I would recognize how racially motivated that is.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    You're stopping way ahead. Things are done for reasons. Why did Africans not invent electricty? Turkic peoples invented basic steam engines, so did the Greeks, why didn't they use them for anything? Ultimately the reasons for this are going to come back to material reality, ie, your surroundings.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - sthnblllII 5y ago
      Actually, the universe is a closed thermodynamic system so the course of history and all decisions ever made by humans in the past and the future were completely determined by the initial energy density fluctuations of the big bang. It logically follows that we should let all criminals out of prison immediately because their crimes were purely an inevitable consequence of their environment. No one can be "guilty" of a crime he did not chose to commit. Likewise everyone should be given the same amount of wealth because the amount of studying and hard work you do is not a virtue deserving of reward, but an inevitability. Time is an illusion. Volition does not exist for one may recursively ask "why" until time collapses into a simple parameter of the function describing the state of the universe. The fact that we experience time at all is a fluke, an irrelevant mystery.

finiteseries 5y ago

The same seems to go for Sapiens, albeit to a lesser degree, possibly as a result of being released more recently in 2015 vs the 90s. Jared Diamond is actually the cover quote for Sapiens looking at my copy!

htcfx 5y ago
Can you expand on or link to such criticisms of Sapiens?
- finiteseries 5y ago
  The classic so far seems to be C.R. Hallpike from an anthropological angle [0] It’s 17 pages, but the general idea is basically ”whenever his facts are broadly correct they are not new, and whenever he tries to strike out on his own he often gets things wrong”. And just in case anyone boxes & dismisses this as anthropology = social science = progressive relativist criticism, Hallpike is an 83 year old Oxford type who recently spent 200 pages [1] being very angry at popular modern ideas about the realities of primitive society. [0] - http://www.hallpike.com/A%20review%20of%20Sapiens.pdf http://www.hallpike.com/A%20review%20of%20Sapiens.pdf [1] - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42109085-ship-of-fools https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42109085-ship-of-fools
  - JALTU 5y ago
    I appreciate these links, thank you. I wish there could/would be a point by point response to the criticisms from Yuval, however. Humans have a predictable tendency to undermine each other, so it would be nice to easily see the counterpoints to the issues raised by other scholars who certainly have incentives to defend their life's investment in their biases, too.
- Ar-Curunir 5y ago
  As a scientist (not in anthropology), the feel of Sapiens was very unscientific. All assertions were made with minimum citation, and couched in "relevatory" language that always makes me feel that the author is hiding something. If you want Sapiens but without these problems, try "Against the Grain" by James C. Scott. Covers much of the same material, but with many more citations from reputed journals and academics.

Syzygies 5y ago

Yes, "Guns" is wildly entertaining. Why we stopped at domesticating horses: Donkeys are only mildly irritable. If a Zebra bites you in the thigh your only option is to shoot it. I sensed an intuitive truth to the instructions on manipulating people. And I sensed that Karl Rove was following this playbook. Whether it has scientific veracity, to my dismay it worked for him. As for "Sapiens", I love how it's translated into so many languages. There's even an Audible version in Catalan. It's so much easier to learn a language when you know what the text is about to say.