5 ms·

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the n

by LanceH 5y ago

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.

mooreds 5y ago
> Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. LOL I would add that if the company has "unlimited vacation time" it's really important to press and find out how much time people actually take. I like to ask for averages or how much time <executive not doing the interview> has taken off in the last few years. That'll tell you what the limits really are.
- plank_time 5y ago
  Uber had/has unlimited vacation time. When I worked there I took no less than 6 weeks a year and one year took 8 weeks. The formula is one week every quarter and then 2 weeks at Christmas. That already brings you to 6 weeks.
- sameboat632746 5y ago
  Yup I have interviewed at a lot of companies with unlimited time off, every single one of them seems to have taken less than 4 weeks off. This is what I get at my current company with no unlimited vacation. And at our company, sick time and mental health days are separate and not counted against your regular PTO.
- uranium 5y ago
  That's a very important point. My company has always had unlimited time. We just had an announcement from our HR head that managers are going to start making sure you take at least 2 weeks a year, ideally in a big block. I've never had trouble taking my vacation, but I'm really pleased that we're going to be enforcing a minimum, to help folks who are more hesitant to take theirs.
  - scarby2 5y ago
    We have unlimited vacation time I have taken 4 days holiday and 6 days sick leave in the past 12 months (4 days because i was on my ass with the COVID vaccine doses). I would have normally taken at least 20 days holiday but it seems pointless to take time off to sit at home and do nothing. This year i have 2 weeks in July and 2 in October and a week for thanksgiving and a week for Christmas.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      Take a break! I took 26 days leave last year (4 pre-Covid), and carried over a few extra. Even with Covid, there were opportunities to take trips locally, or just have a day out of the house with no obligations. I used a few days to work on hobbies when friends were working. When it's use-it-or-lose it (or, in my case, use-it-or-be-forced-to-use-it-in-crap-weather-December), why work?
  - teachrdan 5y ago
    This is good for the company, too. It's a form of fraud detection. When employees take two weeks away in a block, the company can more easily detect ongoing fraud or other funny business going on. That's how a French rogue trader was finally caught: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444914904577615483583558306 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444914904577615...
    - trcarney 5y ago
      Yeah, my mom works at a bank in the US and within her department they have to take off at least 2 weeks consecutively and only that one person in the department can be off during that time for just this reason. They use it as a yearly check to make sure there is no fraud going on.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    The legal minimum in the EU (and many countries) is 20 days. I've seen this enforced once, and everyone was amazed that our colleague hadn't used the minimum 20 days. (We had 30 days according to our contract, but the requirement was for him to take 20. The other 10 were up to him.)
- snow_mac 5y ago
  "unlimited vacation time" is just really an accounting hack. It allows the employer not to have to track that stuff and on your way out, owe you nothing for vacation time. It also allows them to say, well, it's unlimited, take it when you want; then the only option to take time off is around federal holidays. It's basically a scheme to rip you off....
  - xeromal 5y ago
    I've had unlimited PTO at 4 companies and 3/4 were truly unlimited. I've taken an international trip for 14 days every year + 5-6 days off for 3 days weekends + any fat hoidays like taking off Christmas eve. I'm sure there are shit companies but it seems like most companies respect it. I feel like the onus is on the employee to ask off. Most people are just too afraid or too much of a workaholic to take off.
    - jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
      Uhhhhh... so you took under a month off? That's not a strong argument. If unlimited is actually unlimited then I would be taking 2 months a year at least.
      - xeromal 5y ago
        I have no need for more than that though. I could take off more if I wanted but I'd just be bored. lol
      - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
        Yes, we have about 8 weeks off in France by law. I feel it could be 12 or 15 and it would be great (what children have at school, at least)
        jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
        Yeah I was thinking to myself, people in Europe get 5+ weeks off per year so if my employer is saying unlimited then I would be crazy to not take at least that much time off. Then again maybe this guy just loves working but I definitely prefer being paid to not work.
- smsm42 5y ago
  In California at least, if you have X days of vacation time and you don't use it in the year when you leave, they have to pay you for these days. If it's "unlimited" time, you get bupkis.
  - wstuartcl 5y ago
    thats the rub, the companies dont need to pay you on exit and they can manage against the average they would have granted in the first place and prune employees taking more. net win.
andreilys 5y ago
Isn’t 2 weeks the standard within the US? If you’d like longer vacations then Europe is your best bet
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Standard for many companies? Probably. For tech? I don't think so. We start at 10 days the company picks (the typical ones) plus 19 days that "you pick"* and add 1 day per year of tenure for the first 5 years and that feels "competitive but not exceptional" for tech to me. We also offer an additional 4 weeks (contiguous) once every 5 years, which is not standard for tech and is an enjoyable perq. * - plus sick time which you aren’t paid out if you’re fortunate enough to not need to use, plus parental leave
- detaro 5y ago
  In a discussion of "it's so hard to attract employees", you probably should consider doing things that are better than "standard".
- tommypalm 5y ago
  20 days is standard in the UK but most companies will give you 25. Some also give you the option to buy more.
- lacksconfidence 5y ago
  Not in tech. We aren't anything special and we start with ~30 days holiday + vacation on day 1, up to 49 after a decade.
- ska 5y ago
  It's a pretty standard thing (US) to start with for entry level jobs. What the GP is claiming that is that policies that: "everyone starts here with 2 weeks, you get a 3rd week after N years, a 4th after M" are kind of bs for senior employees. They have a point; this rarely applies to senior management, for example - and effectively you are asking people to take a major quality-of-life hit when changing jobs. This can lead to conversations like: "You've asked for N weeks vacation but policy is strict everyone starts here with 2 weeks". "I can probably live with that for an extra X k/year." ... "We can do N weeks". I think in tech 2 week is becoming rare though. More likely either longer, or so-called "unlimited" (which itself is nonsense). The more weird thing I find in US corporate culture is a tendency to not take the vacation you are allotted. In some countries this is legally at least problematic, in the US it's sometimes a badge of honor.
mbesto 5y ago
Also, unlimited vacations[0] are a trap. People end up taking less than market norms (US - 2 weeks) or informally/tribally decided what is the normal amount of time to take off. It also means people work while traveling. [0] - if you're an employer and offer unlimited vacations be honest about it: set guidelines about how many days people typically take, if people are expected to be responsive / working while on vacation, etc.
- lukifer 5y ago
  I counter-act the unlimited vacation thing during onboarding (if not interviewing) by setting expectations: "I consider a reasonable amount of vacation to be X(=3) weeks, does that sound reasonable to you?". Then I track it myself and make sure I take every day. (A very good sign, and really the only way to ethically do unlimited, is when a company sets a minimum amount of time off.)

by LanceH 5y ago

mooreds 5y ago

> Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. LOL I would add that if the company has "unlimited vacation time" it's really important to press and find out how much time people actually take. I like to ask for averages or how much time <executive not doing the interview> has taken off in the last few years. That'll tell you what the limits really are.

plank_time 5y ago
Uber had/has unlimited vacation time. When I worked there I took no less than 6 weeks a year and one year took 8 weeks. The formula is one week every quarter and then 2 weeks at Christmas. That already brings you to 6 weeks.
sameboat632746 5y ago
Yup I have interviewed at a lot of companies with unlimited time off, every single one of them seems to have taken less than 4 weeks off. This is what I get at my current company with no unlimited vacation. And at our company, sick time and mental health days are separate and not counted against your regular PTO.
uranium 5y ago
That's a very important point. My company has always had unlimited time. We just had an announcement from our HR head that managers are going to start making sure you take at least 2 weeks a year, ideally in a big block. I've never had trouble taking my vacation, but I'm really pleased that we're going to be enforcing a minimum, to help folks who are more hesitant to take theirs.
- scarby2 5y ago
  We have unlimited vacation time I have taken 4 days holiday and 6 days sick leave in the past 12 months (4 days because i was on my ass with the COVID vaccine doses). I would have normally taken at least 20 days holiday but it seems pointless to take time off to sit at home and do nothing. This year i have 2 weeks in July and 2 in October and a week for thanksgiving and a week for Christmas.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    Take a break! I took 26 days leave last year (4 pre-Covid), and carried over a few extra. Even with Covid, there were opportunities to take trips locally, or just have a day out of the house with no obligations. I used a few days to work on hobbies when friends were working. When it's use-it-or-lose it (or, in my case, use-it-or-be-forced-to-use-it-in-crap-weather-December), why work?
- teachrdan 5y ago
  This is good for the company, too. It's a form of fraud detection. When employees take two weeks away in a block, the company can more easily detect ongoing fraud or other funny business going on. That's how a French rogue trader was finally caught: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444914904577615483583558306 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444914904577615...
  - trcarney 5y ago
    Yeah, my mom works at a bank in the US and within her department they have to take off at least 2 weeks consecutively and only that one person in the department can be off during that time for just this reason. They use it as a yearly check to make sure there is no fraud going on.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  The legal minimum in the EU (and many countries) is 20 days. I've seen this enforced once, and everyone was amazed that our colleague hadn't used the minimum 20 days. (We had 30 days according to our contract, but the requirement was for him to take 20. The other 10 were up to him.)
snow_mac 5y ago
"unlimited vacation time" is just really an accounting hack. It allows the employer not to have to track that stuff and on your way out, owe you nothing for vacation time. It also allows them to say, well, it's unlimited, take it when you want; then the only option to take time off is around federal holidays. It's basically a scheme to rip you off....
- xeromal 5y ago
  I've had unlimited PTO at 4 companies and 3/4 were truly unlimited. I've taken an international trip for 14 days every year + 5-6 days off for 3 days weekends + any fat hoidays like taking off Christmas eve. I'm sure there are shit companies but it seems like most companies respect it. I feel like the onus is on the employee to ask off. Most people are just too afraid or too much of a workaholic to take off.
  - jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
    Uhhhhh... so you took under a month off? That's not a strong argument. If unlimited is actually unlimited then I would be taking 2 months a year at least.
    - xeromal 5y ago
      I have no need for more than that though. I could take off more if I wanted but I'd just be bored. lol
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      Yes, we have about 8 weeks off in France by law. I feel it could be 12 or 15 and it would be great (what children have at school, at least)
      - jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
        Yeah I was thinking to myself, people in Europe get 5+ weeks off per year so if my employer is saying unlimited then I would be crazy to not take at least that much time off. Then again maybe this guy just loves working but I definitely prefer being paid to not work.
smsm42 5y ago
In California at least, if you have X days of vacation time and you don't use it in the year when you leave, they have to pay you for these days. If it's "unlimited" time, you get bupkis.
- wstuartcl 5y ago
  thats the rub, the companies dont need to pay you on exit and they can manage against the average they would have granted in the first place and prune employees taking more. net win.

andreilys 5y ago

Isn’t 2 weeks the standard within the US? If you’d like longer vacations then Europe is your best bet

sokoloff 5y ago
Standard for many companies? Probably. For tech? I don't think so. We start at 10 days the company picks (the typical ones) plus 19 days that "you pick"* and add 1 day per year of tenure for the first 5 years and that feels "competitive but not exceptional" for tech to me. We also offer an additional 4 weeks (contiguous) once every 5 years, which is not standard for tech and is an enjoyable perq. * - plus sick time which you aren’t paid out if you’re fortunate enough to not need to use, plus parental leave
detaro 5y ago
In a discussion of "it's so hard to attract employees", you probably should consider doing things that are better than "standard".
tommypalm 5y ago
20 days is standard in the UK but most companies will give you 25. Some also give you the option to buy more.
lacksconfidence 5y ago
Not in tech. We aren't anything special and we start with ~30 days holiday + vacation on day 1, up to 49 after a decade.
ska 5y ago
It's a pretty standard thing (US) to start with for entry level jobs. What the GP is claiming that is that policies that: "everyone starts here with 2 weeks, you get a 3rd week after N years, a 4th after M" are kind of bs for senior employees. They have a point; this rarely applies to senior management, for example - and effectively you are asking people to take a major quality-of-life hit when changing jobs. This can lead to conversations like: "You've asked for N weeks vacation but policy is strict everyone starts here with 2 weeks". "I can probably live with that for an extra X k/year." ... "We can do N weeks". I think in tech 2 week is becoming rare though. More likely either longer, or so-called "unlimited" (which itself is nonsense). The more weird thing I find in US corporate culture is a tendency to not take the vacation you are allotted. In some countries this is legally at least problematic, in the US it's sometimes a badge of honor.

mbesto 5y ago

Also, unlimited vacations[0] are a trap. People end up taking less than market norms (US - 2 weeks) or informally/tribally decided what is the normal amount of time to take off. It also means people work while traveling. [0] - if you're an employer and offer unlimited vacations be honest about it: set guidelines about how many days people typically take, if people are expected to be responsive / working while on vacation, etc.

lukifer 5y ago
I counter-act the unlimited vacation thing during onboarding (if not interviewing) by setting expectations: "I consider a reasonable amount of vacation to be X(=3) weeks, does that sound reasonable to you?". Then I track it myself and make sure I take every day. (A very good sign, and really the only way to ethically do unlimited, is when a company sets a minimum amount of time off.)