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I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but here is why the company I work for currently is able to keep me. 1. Interesting work [0]. My day to day

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but here is why the company I work for currently is able to keep me. 1. Interesting work [0]. My day to day is not a slog. I find it challenging and stimulating. 2. I get to the freedom to make decisions. My manager tells me, "I know you have this, so just do it." If I fail (we all do occasionally. Some things just don't work), they don't let the bus hit me. We figure out a solution and then we present that together. 3. A good team. I highly respect every single member of my team. We all know each others strengths, weaknesses and areas of interest. I'm never embarrassed to ask any of them for help and I'm often asked for help/advice/opinion. 4. I have the freedom to learn about projects other teams are working on so I can understand how those projects might affect the project I work on. I can also go work on those teams for a while if I choose to. Those teams are made up of good people who don't mind sharing information. 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. There's no excuse for that. None. Does the company have warts. Yup. But the above makes those warts tolerable. [0] I'll take interesting work over tech stack any day. I don't give a rat's ass about language wars. Pick something suitable and let's get to making something great.

foobarian 6y ago
Maybe we should rephrase OP's question as "How to attract perm Snr Engs when there are so many companies where there is: 1. Interesting work. The day to day is not a slog. ..." You get the idea :-)
bradstewart 6y ago
> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. There's no excuse for that. None. Is a big one. I am very unsure why companies seem so reluctant to do this when the cost of hiring and training a replacement are non-negligible.
- tut-urut-utut 6y ago
  Because it works? With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company. And saving for not doing 5 to 10 percent on everyone every year are much bigger than an occasional hiring and training costs.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    It becomes a reason over time. The raises are less than inflation, so over time the external jobs are more appealing since those postings have to stay competitive. That's why people jump from company to company every 2 years for the pay bump.
  - learc83 6y ago
    >With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company. But it is a reason to leave the company because you can easily get 10% or more switching jobs. >occasional hiring and training costs. Hiring and training costs are enormous, and they aren't occasional when you're talking about software companies with very high turnover. If you're incentivizing job hopping every few years, the average programmer at your company could be spending 25% or more of their tenure ramping up to full capacity.
    - aphextron 6y ago
      >But it is a reason to leave the company because you can easily get 10% or more switching jobs. Depends on the company. Mine is 100% remote since COVID, has generous benefits, a strict 9-5 M-F culture, and plenty of interesting work to do as much (or as little) as I have an appetite for. I make maybe 10% under market rate, but it would take at least a 50% raise to get me to leave. That's never happening, as it would be well over what anyone short of FAANG would pay for a senior dev, so there are definitely intangibles about a work environment that are worth more to me than another $15-$20k a year.
      - learc83 6y ago
        Right but there's an assumption of all else being equal when making a comparison like that. Obviously you can get away with paying below market rates if you provide some other benefits to make up for it.
      - pessimizer 6y ago
        What if there are identical "intangibles" at the place offering you a 10% raise?
- techsupporter 6y ago
  I think a big reason is because that "1% to 2% base pay raise" gets hidden behind bonuses that (usually, but not always) seem bigger, plus stock-based pay that tends to be bigger every year (until it isn't). For me, it's not as gigantic of a deal because as long as my raises cover the rising cost of rent--which it might not this year due to where I live becoming even more massively popular in the wake of COVID--then I am fine with this trade because I hate interviewing and I hate change even more. I used to spend the bulk of my annual bonus and stock grants and saving a little; in recent years, I've flipped that.
  - bradstewart 6y ago
    If I was seeing a consistent 10% YoY gain in my total compensation, you're right--I probably wouldn't care much about the 1-2% base increase. But that wasn't the case, at least for me.
tfp137 6y ago
This. I was going to write out my own list, but you covered everything I wanted to say. I would counter that most companies can't attract or retain talent because they don't really want it. Most of the work that needs to be done in the world doesn't require the top 5 percent of the pool.
- mattgreenrocks 6y ago
  This is a difficult thing for companies and people to accept, but it's very true.
m4tthumphrey 6y ago
> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. There's no excuse for that. None. This x100. I don't understand why companies see this as acceptable, especially when market rates might be so much higher.
adreamingsoul 6y ago
Are they hiring? :)
LanceH 6y ago
A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.
- mooreds 6y ago
  > Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. LOL I would add that if the company has "unlimited vacation time" it's really important to press and find out how much time people actually take. I like to ask for averages or how much time <executive not doing the interview> has taken off in the last few years. That'll tell you what the limits really are.
  - plank_time 6y ago
    Uber had/has unlimited vacation time. When I worked there I took no less than 6 weeks a year and one year took 8 weeks. The formula is one week every quarter and then 2 weeks at Christmas. That already brings you to 6 weeks.
  - sameboat632746 6y ago
    Yup I have interviewed at a lot of companies with unlimited time off, every single one of them seems to have taken less than 4 weeks off. This is what I get at my current company with no unlimited vacation. And at our company, sick time and mental health days are separate and not counted against your regular PTO.
  - uranium 6y ago
    That's a very important point. My company has always had unlimited time. We just had an announcement from our HR head that managers are going to start making sure you take at least 2 weeks a year, ideally in a big block. I've never had trouble taking my vacation, but I'm really pleased that we're going to be enforcing a minimum, to help folks who are more hesitant to take theirs.
    - 6y ago
packetlost 6y ago
> I'll take interesting work over tech stack any day. I don't give a rat's ass about language wars For me, having a Windows (Server) environment is enough to kill my interest. I know several shops in my area (mostly medical field adjacent tech) that are entirely Windows. That's probably more because of my extensive *nix background than anything. Language doesn't matter, but platform can/does to some
- wyldfire 6y ago
  Yeah, after developing on linux for the last 17 years or so I would never go back.
- npsimons 6y ago
  > Language doesn't matter, but platform can/does to some Very much this. I can put up even with FORTRAN - hell one of the most interesting challenges I had recently was figuring out how to call C++ from FORTRAN. But I've been living in Emacs for almost two decades, and longer than that in Linux. I have to insist that my personal development seat is Emacs on Linux. Yes, I can target Windows and probably anything else from Linux (iOS is a challenge, but I'm looking into it), so I don't see the "need" to develop natively.
- babelfish 6y ago
  Yeah, my preferences for tech stack are less "I must have X, Y, Z" and more "I refuse to work with X, Y, Z"
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- Guest42 6y ago
  I also prefer non-Win environments but generally my higher concern is whether the hardware specs and configurations are sufficient for the loads that are placed on them.
- bluefirebrand 6y ago
  I'm kinda the same, except one further: I don't think I ever want to use Visual Studio again. I cut my teeth on Emacs and find VSCode a decent compromise but Visual Studio is just such a clunky editor. Extremely limited UI customization and code highlighting options and such. I don't like it at all
chartpath 6y ago
18 years experience here. I have recently converted to startup employee (again), giving up a lot of money in the contract market exclusively because I am motivated by the business case and have a deep respect for one of the founders, who is an actual domain expert and proven leader from the industry our customers are in. What I find the most difficult, by far, is "coaching up". Coaching down and motivating junior and intermediate developers comes easy by leveraging the inherent mutual respect that craftspeople have for expert colleagues who are fair and supportive. But coaching up is really hard. Because it often requires convincing superiors with less technical understanding and experience in building teams. In contract world, it is easier to be accountable for the Whole Project™ because that's how liability works and we have full power to get it done. As an employee who might have to report to nascent technical and product managers, that initiative can be perceived as stepping on toes, and can invite being thrown under the bus for their mistakes. I don't have a solution, but any company that can solve this issue and is good on the other material benefits should have no problem retaining talent IMHO.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  This is my pain at the moment. My co-founder is new to startup but seems to think that because I can code, I should just focus on that. I've been working in startups for >10 years now, have run Startup Weekends, and have a bloody MBA. Trying to coach him on what should be happening with the marketing funnel is proving impossible. If I was contracting I would be counting the money while watching them mess it up with a wry grin on my face.
  - mstipetic 6y ago
    Why are you putting up with it then?
    - marcus_holmes 6y ago
      This is a very good question, that I keep asking myself. Mostly because loyalty and friendship, and the continual hope that it'll turn a corner soon. But I've put a date on my willingness to tolerate this. If it doesn't turn a corner by July, I'm out.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Yeah, this is pretty much it. Be a place I want to work. That means interesting work, good people, sane management, and good pay. (You don't have to pay more than contracting, but you have to pay well. I might take somewhat less money to work at a place I like, but if you're pay is lousy, I won't like it no matter how nice the people are.)
erik998 6y ago
The top 3-5% of software engineers do not work at startups. They work via their own S Corporation... Why? To copy the same way most doctors and high end professions get paid... 1. solo 401k - hit maximum contribution limit (57k-63.5k) 2. cash balance/defined benefit plan - your solo pension plan up to 3 million For year 2021, the maximum compensation is $290,000 to contribute to your defined benefit plan... As governments grant corporations better preference in tax treatment, you really got to ask yourself why anyone would want to be a W-2 employee anymore... (w-2 employee of your solo S-corp is the exception) Nothing stopping any company from giving you options as well... Some extra rules and costs arise with defined benefit plans but well worth it. SV wants capitalism and free markets but when forced to do so with workers the hesitation comes up... but but but you gotta come a play foozeball at work on the weekends... and we gotta share a beer and tell me about your dev friends.. https://www.manning-napier.com/insights/blogs/research-library/qualified-plans-for-owner-scorps https://www.manning-napier.com/insights/blogs/research-libra... https://saberpension.com/defined-benefit-plans-self-employed https://saberpension.com/defined-benefit-plans-self-employed https://www.dedicated-db.com/one-person-plus/ https://www.dedicated-db.com/one-person-plus/
jjav 6y ago
> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. IMO, pay or raises don't matter much (as long as it's enough to live without worries). If the company culture is bad then yes, it's all about money. Pay me top of the market or I'm looking to move. But if the job is a pleasure and I'm respected, I don't much care for the pay. What does it take to make job a pleasure? In a summary: respect expertise. I wouldn't dream of telling our legal or accounting departments how to do their job, they're the experts in their fields. But for some reason engineering no longer commands any respect (pay != respect) so has lost all autonomy. (I say no longer because it wasn't always that way, in the 90s engineering expertise was highly valued.) Here are three sure fire ways to make me leave ASAP: "Agile". If you treat everyone as a replaceable cog kept under the daily whip of constant status reports then don't expect me to stay very long. Lack of autonomy. If engineering decisions are being made by a product manager with a BA in Arts instead of principal engineers, you can bet I'm interviewing behind your back. (Sadly this is most silicon valley companies these days.) "Unlimited vacation", aka might get 2-3 days per year. Instead, align compay interests with mine, accumulate vacation days and I can take everything I've accumulated. No less than 20 days per year + holidays.

foobarian 6y ago

Maybe we should rephrase OP's question as "How to attract perm Snr Engs when there are so many companies where there is: 1. Interesting work. The day to day is not a slog. ..." You get the idea :-)

bradstewart 6y ago

> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. There's no excuse for that. None. Is a big one. I am very unsure why companies seem so reluctant to do this when the cost of hiring and training a replacement are non-negligible.

tut-urut-utut 6y ago
Because it works? With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company. And saving for not doing 5 to 10 percent on everyone every year are much bigger than an occasional hiring and training costs.
- giantg2 6y ago
  It becomes a reason over time. The raises are less than inflation, so over time the external jobs are more appealing since those postings have to stay competitive. That's why people jump from company to company every 2 years for the pay bump.
- learc83 6y ago
  >With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company. But it is a reason to leave the company because you can easily get 10% or more switching jobs. >occasional hiring and training costs. Hiring and training costs are enormous, and they aren't occasional when you're talking about software companies with very high turnover. If you're incentivizing job hopping every few years, the average programmer at your company could be spending 25% or more of their tenure ramping up to full capacity.
  - aphextron 6y ago
    >But it is a reason to leave the company because you can easily get 10% or more switching jobs. Depends on the company. Mine is 100% remote since COVID, has generous benefits, a strict 9-5 M-F culture, and plenty of interesting work to do as much (or as little) as I have an appetite for. I make maybe 10% under market rate, but it would take at least a 50% raise to get me to leave. That's never happening, as it would be well over what anyone short of FAANG would pay for a senior dev, so there are definitely intangibles about a work environment that are worth more to me than another $15-$20k a year.
    - learc83 6y ago
      Right but there's an assumption of all else being equal when making a comparison like that. Obviously you can get away with paying below market rates if you provide some other benefits to make up for it.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      What if there are identical "intangibles" at the place offering you a 10% raise?
techsupporter 6y ago
I think a big reason is because that "1% to 2% base pay raise" gets hidden behind bonuses that (usually, but not always) seem bigger, plus stock-based pay that tends to be bigger every year (until it isn't). For me, it's not as gigantic of a deal because as long as my raises cover the rising cost of rent--which it might not this year due to where I live becoming even more massively popular in the wake of COVID--then I am fine with this trade because I hate interviewing and I hate change even more. I used to spend the bulk of my annual bonus and stock grants and saving a little; in recent years, I've flipped that.
- bradstewart 6y ago
  If I was seeing a consistent 10% YoY gain in my total compensation, you're right--I probably wouldn't care much about the 1-2% base increase. But that wasn't the case, at least for me.

tfp137 6y ago

This. I was going to write out my own list, but you covered everything I wanted to say. I would counter that most companies can't attract or retain talent because they don't really want it. Most of the work that needs to be done in the world doesn't require the top 5 percent of the pool.

mattgreenrocks 6y ago
This is a difficult thing for companies and people to accept, but it's very true.

m4tthumphrey 6y ago

> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. There's no excuse for that. None. This x100. I don't understand why companies see this as acceptable, especially when market rates might be so much higher.

adreamingsoul 6y ago

Are they hiring? :)

LanceH 6y ago

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.

mooreds 6y ago
> Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. LOL I would add that if the company has "unlimited vacation time" it's really important to press and find out how much time people actually take. I like to ask for averages or how much time <executive not doing the interview> has taken off in the last few years. That'll tell you what the limits really are.
- plank_time 6y ago
  Uber had/has unlimited vacation time. When I worked there I took no less than 6 weeks a year and one year took 8 weeks. The formula is one week every quarter and then 2 weeks at Christmas. That already brings you to 6 weeks.
- sameboat632746 6y ago
  Yup I have interviewed at a lot of companies with unlimited time off, every single one of them seems to have taken less than 4 weeks off. This is what I get at my current company with no unlimited vacation. And at our company, sick time and mental health days are separate and not counted against your regular PTO.
- uranium 6y ago
  That's a very important point. My company has always had unlimited time. We just had an announcement from our HR head that managers are going to start making sure you take at least 2 weeks a year, ideally in a big block. I've never had trouble taking my vacation, but I'm really pleased that we're going to be enforcing a minimum, to help folks who are more hesitant to take theirs.
  - 6y ago

packetlost 6y ago

> I'll take interesting work over tech stack any day. I don't give a rat's ass about language wars For me, having a Windows (Server) environment is enough to kill my interest. I know several shops in my area (mostly medical field adjacent tech) that are entirely Windows. That's probably more because of my extensive *nix background than anything. Language doesn't matter, but platform can/does to some

wyldfire 6y ago
Yeah, after developing on linux for the last 17 years or so I would never go back.
npsimons 6y ago
> Language doesn't matter, but platform can/does to some Very much this. I can put up even with FORTRAN - hell one of the most interesting challenges I had recently was figuring out how to call C++ from FORTRAN. But I've been living in Emacs for almost two decades, and longer than that in Linux. I have to insist that my personal development seat is Emacs on Linux. Yes, I can target Windows and probably anything else from Linux (iOS is a challenge, but I'm looking into it), so I don't see the "need" to develop natively.
babelfish 6y ago
Yeah, my preferences for tech stack are less "I must have X, Y, Z" and more "I refuse to work with X, Y, Z"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Guest42 6y ago
I also prefer non-Win environments but generally my higher concern is whether the hardware specs and configurations are sufficient for the loads that are placed on them.
bluefirebrand 6y ago
I'm kinda the same, except one further: I don't think I ever want to use Visual Studio again. I cut my teeth on Emacs and find VSCode a decent compromise but Visual Studio is just such a clunky editor. Extremely limited UI customization and code highlighting options and such. I don't like it at all

chartpath 6y ago

18 years experience here. I have recently converted to startup employee (again), giving up a lot of money in the contract market exclusively because I am motivated by the business case and have a deep respect for one of the founders, who is an actual domain expert and proven leader from the industry our customers are in. What I find the most difficult, by far, is "coaching up". Coaching down and motivating junior and intermediate developers comes easy by leveraging the inherent mutual respect that craftspeople have for expert colleagues who are fair and supportive. But coaching up is really hard. Because it often requires convincing superiors with less technical understanding and experience in building teams. In contract world, it is easier to be accountable for the Whole Project™ because that's how liability works and we have full power to get it done. As an employee who might have to report to nascent technical and product managers, that initiative can be perceived as stepping on toes, and can invite being thrown under the bus for their mistakes. I don't have a solution, but any company that can solve this issue and is good on the other material benefits should have no problem retaining talent IMHO.

marcus_holmes 6y ago
This is my pain at the moment. My co-founder is new to startup but seems to think that because I can code, I should just focus on that. I've been working in startups for >10 years now, have run Startup Weekends, and have a bloody MBA. Trying to coach him on what should be happening with the marketing funnel is proving impossible. If I was contracting I would be counting the money while watching them mess it up with a wry grin on my face.
- mstipetic 6y ago
  Why are you putting up with it then?
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    This is a very good question, that I keep asking myself. Mostly because loyalty and friendship, and the continual hope that it'll turn a corner soon. But I've put a date on my willingness to tolerate this. If it doesn't turn a corner by July, I'm out.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

Yeah, this is pretty much it. Be a place I want to work. That means interesting work, good people, sane management, and good pay. (You don't have to pay more than contracting, but you have to pay well. I might take somewhat less money to work at a place I like, but if you're pay is lousy, I won't like it no matter how nice the people are.)

erik998 6y ago

The top 3-5% of software engineers do not work at startups. They work via their own S Corporation... Why? To copy the same way most doctors and high end professions get paid... 1. solo 401k - hit maximum contribution limit (57k-63.5k) 2. cash balance/defined benefit plan - your solo pension plan up to 3 million For year 2021, the maximum compensation is $290,000 to contribute to your defined benefit plan... As governments grant corporations better preference in tax treatment, you really got to ask yourself why anyone would want to be a W-2 employee anymore... (w-2 employee of your solo S-corp is the exception) Nothing stopping any company from giving you options as well... Some extra rules and costs arise with defined benefit plans but well worth it. SV wants capitalism and free markets but when forced to do so with workers the hesitation comes up... but but but you gotta come a play foozeball at work on the weekends... and we gotta share a beer and tell me about your dev friends.. https://www.manning-napier.com/insights/blogs/research-library/qualified-plans-for-owner-scorps https://www.manning-napier.com/insights/blogs/research-libra... https://saberpension.com/defined-benefit-plans-self-employed https://saberpension.com/defined-benefit-plans-self-employed https://www.dedicated-db.com/one-person-plus/ https://www.dedicated-db.com/one-person-plus/

jjav 6y ago

> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. IMO, pay or raises don't matter much (as long as it's enough to live without worries). If the company culture is bad then yes, it's all about money. Pay me top of the market or I'm looking to move. But if the job is a pleasure and I'm respected, I don't much care for the pay. What does it take to make job a pleasure? In a summary: respect expertise. I wouldn't dream of telling our legal or accounting departments how to do their job, they're the experts in their fields. But for some reason engineering no longer commands any respect (pay != respect) so has lost all autonomy. (I say no longer because it wasn't always that way, in the 90s engineering expertise was highly valued.) Here are three sure fire ways to make me leave ASAP: "Agile". If you treat everyone as a replaceable cog kept under the daily whip of constant status reports then don't expect me to stay very long. Lack of autonomy. If engineering decisions are being made by a product manager with a BA in Arts instead of principal engineers, you can bet I'm interviewing behind your back. (Sadly this is most silicon valley companies these days.) "Unlimited vacation", aka might get 2-3 days per year. Instead, align compay interests with mine, accumulate vacation days and I can take everything I've accumulated. No less than 20 days per year + holidays.