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> Plus jumping on to a new project every few months keeps the work interesting But contractors are usually hired for their existing skilsets where they can jum

> Plus jumping on to a new project every few months keeps the work interesting But contractors are usually hired for their existing skilsets where they can jump in and start contributing immediately. So you end up doing similar projects. eg: If you are a backend programmer, no one will hire you to work on as a machine learning engineer on day rates. This is a big myth that contractors are working on something new and exciting every few months. Most of contracting work is short term grunt work. > rather than stagnating at the same desk for years on end. No its the opposite. Companies invest in training and take a chance on you doing something new inside in the company.

Nursie 6y ago
All I have to say to that is "You'd be surprised", particularly when you get a reputation for picking up new things quickly. > Companies invest in training Literally never happened for me in 12 years of perm work, for large and small companies. Discounting trivial/patronising things like security training. I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor, just as I did when perm.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor Why would i hire a self trained machine learning engineer with no experience on high day rates when I can hire someone with experience. Ppl hiring contractors don't have time or patience for you to experiment with self training on their dime, I would hire a fulltimer if i have all the time and money for ppl to learn on the job.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Again, all I can really say is "You'd be surprised". I think ML is probably different, in that it's not something that can be just 'picked up' that easily (AFAICT). But it's honestly surprised me over the years how often my clients have said "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?"
    - mgkimsal 6y ago
      > "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?" If you're already working in their systems and domain, you probably have a decent idea of how you can address it, even if it's outside your main area of expertise. This happens to me, and... if I'm completely unqualified, I just say "I can't do that, here's someone else who can" and make a referral/connection to someone in my network. That's often the harder part - finding someone in my network who is both competent and available.
      - Silhouette 6y ago
        The most important thing is probably having that network in the first place, not just to offer referrals but to get good gigs yourself. I know a few very experienced people who have looked into contracting or freelancing over the past year either for the first time or for the first round in many years. They have good skills and the aptitude to pick up whatever else they need, but without the broad network that comes with years of doing short term gigs, they've found the market very tough to break into. I doubt they would recognise the talk of a seller's market and ever-increasing rates that we see on sites like HN! If you don't have that network and people actively seeking you out, you get stuck with looking via agencies (= ghosted often if you don't already have exactly the right buzzwords) or the online marketplaces (= low rates, poor quality clients and high risk of problems with the marketplace itself). And even if you do, I've seen more than one person whose whole network basically all fell apart around the same time because whole industries were hit by COVID. Today even more than usual, it is about who you know as much as what you know.
    - nasmorn 6y ago
      Wouldn’t we all just rather have someone competent work at our issues? It is not like most orgs can simply hire some perfectly knowledgeable superstar for their next problem. They can just spin the wheel of fortune and get someone who has the correct experience on paper. I‘d go with the person who solved my last 5 problems competently as well.
- dopidopHN 6y ago
  companies investing in training is real. Be it pushing for certification, mooc, internal training credit. All of that was part of my review for instance. It does work.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Ugh, reviews, another part of employee life I haven't missed! That stuff re: training was not something that was part of my life as a perm worker, in the UK or Australia. The companies certainly liked to pay lip-service to employee development, but I didn't see much evidence of it actually happening.
    - LanceH 6y ago
      One of the things I enjoy about contracting is that instead of watching all the videos on harassment and whatever, I usually just have to sign a code of conduct. Those corporate videos are soul crushing. I guess the exception was one quiz about bribery I had to take at IBM. It asked me what I would do if I were offered a cook to go with my lodgings where I was staying during an engagement. This woke me up to the possibilities of bribery I didn't know people were getting. I'm not exactly looking for bribes, but my the hypotheticals had me thinking way too small.
      - Nursie 6y ago
        Actually you raise a good point - I also did a short bribery and corruption self-driven training thing at IBM, and that one was at least interesting. The “Active Shooter” one at JPMC was somewhat sobering.
        LanceH 6y ago
        I would accept a cook, btw, if anyone out there is bribing :)
    - blaser-waffle 6y ago
      Same. Heard much discussion about it at every job, but in terms of actual time or dollars -- nah.
- erikerikson 6y ago
  The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out. The trappings of instruction are not what makes training educational.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    > The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out. Then contracting has been no different to perm work in that respect, for me. :shrug:
atonse 6y ago
> But contractors are usually hired for their existing skilsets where they can jump in and start contributing immediately. So you end up doing similar projects. That's not been the case with our best contractors. Yes, in some cases, they were hired for skillsets they already had. But a couple of them we work with, we were happy to let them learn elixir on company time because they demonstrated solid polyglot skills. And that's paid off in spades. I've had the same experience with my personal consulting agreements. People sometimes hire you for your experience, and know you'll still bring your judgement, experience, and problem solving mindset to the technology du jour and not start from scratch.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > But a couple of them we work with, we were happy to let them learn elixir on company time Yes thats what i am saying. Hiring rails devs and letting them learn elixir is no big deal and kind of makes sense. But that not really exciting stuff for senior engineers. Senior engineers want to learn new domains like sales, learn leadership skills, have a say in product direction ect. That to me is exciting stuff, not learning another web framework.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    > Senior engineers want to learn new domains like sales, learn leadership skills, have a say in product direction ect. Not all senior folks are interested in that stuff though. Some are more interested in picking up new tech and delivering good quality technical work than they are in going outside of tech to other parts of a business, or getting into management. > That to me is exciting stuff Sounds to me like you're less interested in the software creation aspects these days, which is also fine :)
  - atonse 6y ago
    I think the key there is the new domain/language. One of the contractors was a rails dev, the other one was actually just a polyglot, although we had hired him for Ember.js help. But the project is also a high impact, high stress, and challenging project (COVID vaccination software) so yes the domain, level of challenge, and impact helps tremendously to stand out. As a tech exec and senior engineer myself, I find it highly appealing to do contract work mainly because there are many options/opportunities, and the ability to take a gap wherever you want. That's why I've had my own company for roughly 12 years. I do think it'll remain that way for the foreseeable future. Many of the smartest people I know are happy to remain contractors because of the flexibility. I will say though, that I would never do this without Obamacare (in the US). If not for that, I would be "stuck" in a W-2 job just so I could insure my family. (honestly not trying to pass judgment on people who have 9-5 jobs, I'm just not wired for climbing the corporate ladder, etc) Which is why I always say, supporting Medicare for All is (ironically) one of the most pro-business moves we could make. It will unleash entrepreneurial spirit unlike anything we've ever seen in the US. The number of 1-2 person businesses will explode. All the talent that's stuck at large employers so they can get those health benefits for their families (even though, thanks to Obamacare, you really don't need to anymore) will get liberated.
sanitycheck 6y ago
I've been contracting for 16 years, had a few perm jobs before that. While it's true that you get paid to do what you're already good at that's the case for everyone. The difference is, as a contractor you can afford to take a few months off and become good at something else - then you'll get a job doing that instead. You can also pick and choose your projects more freely and there's usually nothing stopping you having long term projects as well as short term gigs, often working for multiple clients at once. In the US or elsewhere where health insurance is a thing I would probably go perm. > Companies invest in training and take a chance on you doing something new inside in the company. I literally LOL'd at this... If you're great at what you're doing, they're keeping you where you are - and "invest in training" could easily mean a 3 day workshop where you find you already know more than the instructor. No thanks. In answer to the original question, offer more money than you think you can offer and set it up as a 3 month contract-to-perm situation (don't write that down anywhere if you're in the UK - they'll immediately be inside IR35) so you know it's a good match. Alternatively, skin in the game in the form of shares or whatever - but they'd have to be confident in the business, I've rejected that offer in the past.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > become good at something else - then you'll get a job doing that instead. I don't understand this. How can someone trust you that you picked up some new skill if you have no experience in it. Do you put it on your resume anyways? How can somone even pickup software sales ( for example) on their own free time. > I literally LOL'd at this... If you're great at what you're doing, they're keeping you where they are - and "invest in training" could easily mean a 3 day workshop where you find you already know more than the instructor. No thanks. No didn't mean that kind of investment lol. I meant more like taking a chance on you. I was able to convince my manager to let me work on product marketing and sales even though i was regular backend dev. It was one of the best career moments for me. This would've never happened if i was contractor.
  - sanitycheck 6y ago
    > I don't understand this. How can someone trust you that you picked up some new skill if you have no experience in it. Do you put it on your resume anyways? How can somone even pickup software sales ( for example) on their own free time. Well, for anything which produces tangible output you can show off (I'm obviously thinking of programming) it's fairly straightforward to prove you can do it. Software sales? Yeah, no, I couldn't learn that in my spare time - good point. Personally a jump to marketing and sales sounds roughly as enticing as the time I was offered either redundancy or a new role as a Lotus Notes dev, but I'm happy it floats your boat.
softveda 6y ago
As a contractor training is my own responsibility. I pay for own Pluralsight and O'Reilly subscriptions and conferences all tax dedcutible. I take at least 2 certification exams each year as the motivation to stay current. This has allowed me to improve my resume year after year.

Nursie 6y ago

All I have to say to that is "You'd be surprised", particularly when you get a reputation for picking up new things quickly. > Companies invest in training Literally never happened for me in 12 years of perm work, for large and small companies. Discounting trivial/patronising things like security training. I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor, just as I did when perm.

dominotw 6y ago
> I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor Why would i hire a self trained machine learning engineer with no experience on high day rates when I can hire someone with experience. Ppl hiring contractors don't have time or patience for you to experiment with self training on their dime, I would hire a fulltimer if i have all the time and money for ppl to learn on the job.
- Nursie 6y ago
  Again, all I can really say is "You'd be surprised". I think ML is probably different, in that it's not something that can be just 'picked up' that easily (AFAICT). But it's honestly surprised me over the years how often my clients have said "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?"
  - mgkimsal 6y ago
    > "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?" If you're already working in their systems and domain, you probably have a decent idea of how you can address it, even if it's outside your main area of expertise. This happens to me, and... if I'm completely unqualified, I just say "I can't do that, here's someone else who can" and make a referral/connection to someone in my network. That's often the harder part - finding someone in my network who is both competent and available.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      The most important thing is probably having that network in the first place, not just to offer referrals but to get good gigs yourself. I know a few very experienced people who have looked into contracting or freelancing over the past year either for the first time or for the first round in many years. They have good skills and the aptitude to pick up whatever else they need, but without the broad network that comes with years of doing short term gigs, they've found the market very tough to break into. I doubt they would recognise the talk of a seller's market and ever-increasing rates that we see on sites like HN! If you don't have that network and people actively seeking you out, you get stuck with looking via agencies (= ghosted often if you don't already have exactly the right buzzwords) or the online marketplaces (= low rates, poor quality clients and high risk of problems with the marketplace itself). And even if you do, I've seen more than one person whose whole network basically all fell apart around the same time because whole industries were hit by COVID. Today even more than usual, it is about who you know as much as what you know.
  - nasmorn 6y ago
    Wouldn’t we all just rather have someone competent work at our issues? It is not like most orgs can simply hire some perfectly knowledgeable superstar for their next problem. They can just spin the wheel of fortune and get someone who has the correct experience on paper. I‘d go with the person who solved my last 5 problems competently as well.
dopidopHN 6y ago
companies investing in training is real. Be it pushing for certification, mooc, internal training credit. All of that was part of my review for instance. It does work.
- Nursie 6y ago
  Ugh, reviews, another part of employee life I haven't missed! That stuff re: training was not something that was part of my life as a perm worker, in the UK or Australia. The companies certainly liked to pay lip-service to employee development, but I didn't see much evidence of it actually happening.
  - LanceH 6y ago
    One of the things I enjoy about contracting is that instead of watching all the videos on harassment and whatever, I usually just have to sign a code of conduct. Those corporate videos are soul crushing. I guess the exception was one quiz about bribery I had to take at IBM. It asked me what I would do if I were offered a cook to go with my lodgings where I was staying during an engagement. This woke me up to the possibilities of bribery I didn't know people were getting. I'm not exactly looking for bribes, but my the hypotheticals had me thinking way too small.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      Actually you raise a good point - I also did a short bribery and corruption self-driven training thing at IBM, and that one was at least interesting. The “Active Shooter” one at JPMC was somewhat sobering.
      - LanceH 6y ago
        I would accept a cook, btw, if anyone out there is bribing :)
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    Same. Heard much discussion about it at every job, but in terms of actual time or dollars -- nah.
erikerikson 6y ago
The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out. The trappings of instruction are not what makes training educational.
- Nursie 6y ago
  > The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out. Then contracting has been no different to perm work in that respect, for me. :shrug:

atonse 6y ago

> But contractors are usually hired for their existing skilsets where they can jump in and start contributing immediately. So you end up doing similar projects. That's not been the case with our best contractors. Yes, in some cases, they were hired for skillsets they already had. But a couple of them we work with, we were happy to let them learn elixir on company time because they demonstrated solid polyglot skills. And that's paid off in spades. I've had the same experience with my personal consulting agreements. People sometimes hire you for your experience, and know you'll still bring your judgement, experience, and problem solving mindset to the technology du jour and not start from scratch.

dominotw 6y ago
> But a couple of them we work with, we were happy to let them learn elixir on company time Yes thats what i am saying. Hiring rails devs and letting them learn elixir is no big deal and kind of makes sense. But that not really exciting stuff for senior engineers. Senior engineers want to learn new domains like sales, learn leadership skills, have a say in product direction ect. That to me is exciting stuff, not learning another web framework.
- Nursie 6y ago
  > Senior engineers want to learn new domains like sales, learn leadership skills, have a say in product direction ect. Not all senior folks are interested in that stuff though. Some are more interested in picking up new tech and delivering good quality technical work than they are in going outside of tech to other parts of a business, or getting into management. > That to me is exciting stuff Sounds to me like you're less interested in the software creation aspects these days, which is also fine :)
- atonse 6y ago
  I think the key there is the new domain/language. One of the contractors was a rails dev, the other one was actually just a polyglot, although we had hired him for Ember.js help. But the project is also a high impact, high stress, and challenging project (COVID vaccination software) so yes the domain, level of challenge, and impact helps tremendously to stand out. As a tech exec and senior engineer myself, I find it highly appealing to do contract work mainly because there are many options/opportunities, and the ability to take a gap wherever you want. That's why I've had my own company for roughly 12 years. I do think it'll remain that way for the foreseeable future. Many of the smartest people I know are happy to remain contractors because of the flexibility. I will say though, that I would never do this without Obamacare (in the US). If not for that, I would be "stuck" in a W-2 job just so I could insure my family. (honestly not trying to pass judgment on people who have 9-5 jobs, I'm just not wired for climbing the corporate ladder, etc) Which is why I always say, supporting Medicare for All is (ironically) one of the most pro-business moves we could make. It will unleash entrepreneurial spirit unlike anything we've ever seen in the US. The number of 1-2 person businesses will explode. All the talent that's stuck at large employers so they can get those health benefits for their families (even though, thanks to Obamacare, you really don't need to anymore) will get liberated.

sanitycheck 6y ago

I've been contracting for 16 years, had a few perm jobs before that. While it's true that you get paid to do what you're already good at that's the case for everyone. The difference is, as a contractor you can afford to take a few months off and become good at something else - then you'll get a job doing that instead. You can also pick and choose your projects more freely and there's usually nothing stopping you having long term projects as well as short term gigs, often working for multiple clients at once. In the US or elsewhere where health insurance is a thing I would probably go perm. > Companies invest in training and take a chance on you doing something new inside in the company. I literally LOL'd at this... If you're great at what you're doing, they're keeping you where you are - and "invest in training" could easily mean a 3 day workshop where you find you already know more than the instructor. No thanks. In answer to the original question, offer more money than you think you can offer and set it up as a 3 month contract-to-perm situation (don't write that down anywhere if you're in the UK - they'll immediately be inside IR35) so you know it's a good match. Alternatively, skin in the game in the form of shares or whatever - but they'd have to be confident in the business, I've rejected that offer in the past.

dominotw 6y ago
> become good at something else - then you'll get a job doing that instead. I don't understand this. How can someone trust you that you picked up some new skill if you have no experience in it. Do you put it on your resume anyways? How can somone even pickup software sales ( for example) on their own free time. > I literally LOL'd at this... If you're great at what you're doing, they're keeping you where they are - and "invest in training" could easily mean a 3 day workshop where you find you already know more than the instructor. No thanks. No didn't mean that kind of investment lol. I meant more like taking a chance on you. I was able to convince my manager to let me work on product marketing and sales even though i was regular backend dev. It was one of the best career moments for me. This would've never happened if i was contractor.
- sanitycheck 6y ago
  > I don't understand this. How can someone trust you that you picked up some new skill if you have no experience in it. Do you put it on your resume anyways? How can somone even pickup software sales ( for example) on their own free time. Well, for anything which produces tangible output you can show off (I'm obviously thinking of programming) it's fairly straightforward to prove you can do it. Software sales? Yeah, no, I couldn't learn that in my spare time - good point. Personally a jump to marketing and sales sounds roughly as enticing as the time I was offered either redundancy or a new role as a Lotus Notes dev, but I'm happy it floats your boat.

softveda 6y ago

As a contractor training is my own responsibility. I pay for own Pluralsight and O'Reilly subscriptions and conferences all tax dedcutible. I take at least 2 certification exams each year as the motivation to stay current. This has allowed me to improve my resume year after year.