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> Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The better contractors I've worked with all do, here in the UK. The day rates are high. The taxes

by Nursie 6y ago

> Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The better contractors I've worked with all do, here in the UK. The day rates are high. The taxes are the same or lower, health insurance is optional. There's some company insurances you need and you have to get an accountant, but all-in that should be covered by less than a week of work each year. Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summer off to live on your accumulated war chest and chill out, it's amazing. Plus jumping on to a new project every few months keeps the work interesting, rather than stagnating at the same desk for years on end.

stewx 6y ago
Asking a contractor if they like doing contract work is a bit like asking someone at McDonald's if they like hamburgers. The answer is pretty likely to be "yes".
- Nursie 6y ago
  No argument here! I'm just taking (minor) issue with the assertion that relatively few engineers want to do contract work. If that were the case you'd expect some contractors to wish they were perm. I think the benefits I outlined are such that quite a few do want to. I've also run into quite a number of perm folk over the years who want to do it but don't quite have the confidence in their own skills to make that leap. I was one of them!
  - nsonha 6y ago
    you can start by working in consulting
jameshart 6y ago
I mean, it’s not surprising that people who are doing well in the contract market like the contract market. For my part, I literally left the UK in part because the industry there was so geared towards contract work or boutique contract houses as the only viable career path for senior developers. It’s just not for everyone. I like staying with a product team and building and owning stuff; I like companies that build their technology in-house rather than outsourcing; I like being able to shape what the technology team contributes to the business rather than respond to already-baked RFPs. I like stock-based comp. The UK tech job market is very well suited to certain kinds of developers and certain kinds of relationships between businesses (and frequently government organizations) and their technology providers. It’s not the only way though.
- Nursie 6y ago
  I certainly agree that the UK market for senior tech people is very poor, you're right that past a certain point the only way to keep advancing in your career and keep raising your income is to strike out on your own this way. I think it's incredibly short-sighted, but a lot of British businesses treat their software staff as equivalent to generic office inhabitants, rather than highly skilled software practitioners. They also seem to treat their tech staff like children.
  - dopidopHN 6y ago
    That why I can’t stand contracting. If you treat your team like children they are gonna behave like it. Also: no accountability of decision. Fire a few people and keep pushing harder. Never smarter. This does not convey to quality product. It convey to pass arbitrary deadlines with half the team gone and the other ready to switch project. Terrible knowledge management, too.
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    > I think it's incredibly short-sighted, but a lot of British businesses treat their software staff as equivalent to generic office inhabitants, rather than highly skilled software practitioners. They also seem to treat their tech staff like children. This is not just true for British businesses... it's common worldwide across everything that's not a tech startup. The older the people in management are, the less likely they are to even understand what the younger staff is talking about. German Mittelstand is infamous for this - they're roadblocked on one side by the government bending over backwards to impede proper buildout of real broadband across the country and not just in cities, and on the other side by 80+ aged patriarchs who still are dictating business communication in an audio recorder for their secretaries to type down. These pre-Boomer fossils are only focused on micromanagement and keeping control until the day they literally die, and the Boomer generation isn't much more modern either. The result? Humble startups led by young people of a diverse background are eating their lunch left and right, and the Boomer+older generation are standing still, scratching their heads and wondering what's going on.
    - 6y ago
dominotw 6y ago
> Plus jumping on to a new project every few months keeps the work interesting But contractors are usually hired for their existing skilsets where they can jump in and start contributing immediately. So you end up doing similar projects. eg: If you are a backend programmer, no one will hire you to work on as a machine learning engineer on day rates. This is a big myth that contractors are working on something new and exciting every few months. Most of contracting work is short term grunt work. > rather than stagnating at the same desk for years on end. No its the opposite. Companies invest in training and take a chance on you doing something new inside in the company.
- Nursie 6y ago
  All I have to say to that is "You'd be surprised", particularly when you get a reputation for picking up new things quickly. > Companies invest in training Literally never happened for me in 12 years of perm work, for large and small companies. Discounting trivial/patronising things like security training. I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor, just as I did when perm.
  - dominotw 6y ago
    > I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor Why would i hire a self trained machine learning engineer with no experience on high day rates when I can hire someone with experience. Ppl hiring contractors don't have time or patience for you to experiment with self training on their dime, I would hire a fulltimer if i have all the time and money for ppl to learn on the job.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      Again, all I can really say is "You'd be surprised". I think ML is probably different, in that it's not something that can be just 'picked up' that easily (AFAICT). But it's honestly surprised me over the years how often my clients have said "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?"
viraptor 6y ago
> Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summer off to live on your accumulated war chest and chill out, it's amazing. If you can do that, that's amazing. Unfortunately many contractors fall into the "if I don't work I'm losing money" mentality and never stop. Then they start converting everything to how many days it cost them to earn and try to never spend money. I've seen it so many times and it's so unhealthy. Strangely it seems to mostly affect people who do get stupid-high rates. The most absurd case was a contractor guy in a big corp at lunch with employees from the same team - he was pulling 3x our employee rate equivalent and complaining how he can't afford to take any days off or he'd be "losing" his daily rate.
- Nursie 6y ago
  It's true, and you do get into "If I take the week off I'm losing £X!" headspace sometimes. But it's important to remember that if you don't take that week off, you're more likely to burn out. And it's also important to remember why you got into it in the first place - being able to take significant amounts of time between contracts was a big part of it for me. I intend to take three months downtime a little later this year.
- compiler-guy 6y ago
  This happens with everyone I know who is self employed. Lawyers, auto shop owners, repair shops. If you bill hourly, or by the job, it is very easy to calculate how much you lose by not working right now.
dom96 6y ago
As someone that is employed full-time in the UK I must say you (and others in this thread) have piqued my interest. I am still quite early in my career but the ability to choose contracts (and possibly even the tech stack) sounds like a dream. Do you or anyone else have advice on how to get started with becoming a contractors?
- mpalfrey 6y ago
  I would recommend doing your own research on this one. Contractor UK forums are worth reading - http://contractoruk.com http://contractoruk.com Contracting in the UK used to be pretty good. These days things have changed a lot with further IR35 crackdowns. I've investigated this a few times personally over the years and am a permanent employee still. Admittedly a few rungs up the corporate ladder these days, but contracting isn't the gravy train it used to be.
softveda 6y ago
The same in Australia. I doubled my income from going to contract work without even using a business/company structure. Long timers use a company structure for even better gains.

by Nursie 6y ago

stewx 6y ago

Asking a contractor if they like doing contract work is a bit like asking someone at McDonald's if they like hamburgers. The answer is pretty likely to be "yes".

Nursie 6y ago
No argument here! I'm just taking (minor) issue with the assertion that relatively few engineers want to do contract work. If that were the case you'd expect some contractors to wish they were perm. I think the benefits I outlined are such that quite a few do want to. I've also run into quite a number of perm folk over the years who want to do it but don't quite have the confidence in their own skills to make that leap. I was one of them!
- nsonha 6y ago
  you can start by working in consulting

jameshart 6y ago

I mean, it’s not surprising that people who are doing well in the contract market like the contract market. For my part, I literally left the UK in part because the industry there was so geared towards contract work or boutique contract houses as the only viable career path for senior developers. It’s just not for everyone. I like staying with a product team and building and owning stuff; I like companies that build their technology in-house rather than outsourcing; I like being able to shape what the technology team contributes to the business rather than respond to already-baked RFPs. I like stock-based comp. The UK tech job market is very well suited to certain kinds of developers and certain kinds of relationships between businesses (and frequently government organizations) and their technology providers. It’s not the only way though.

Nursie 6y ago
I certainly agree that the UK market for senior tech people is very poor, you're right that past a certain point the only way to keep advancing in your career and keep raising your income is to strike out on your own this way. I think it's incredibly short-sighted, but a lot of British businesses treat their software staff as equivalent to generic office inhabitants, rather than highly skilled software practitioners. They also seem to treat their tech staff like children.
- dopidopHN 6y ago
  That why I can’t stand contracting. If you treat your team like children they are gonna behave like it. Also: no accountability of decision. Fire a few people and keep pushing harder. Never smarter. This does not convey to quality product. It convey to pass arbitrary deadlines with half the team gone and the other ready to switch project. Terrible knowledge management, too.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  > I think it's incredibly short-sighted, but a lot of British businesses treat their software staff as equivalent to generic office inhabitants, rather than highly skilled software practitioners. They also seem to treat their tech staff like children. This is not just true for British businesses... it's common worldwide across everything that's not a tech startup. The older the people in management are, the less likely they are to even understand what the younger staff is talking about. German Mittelstand is infamous for this - they're roadblocked on one side by the government bending over backwards to impede proper buildout of real broadband across the country and not just in cities, and on the other side by 80+ aged patriarchs who still are dictating business communication in an audio recorder for their secretaries to type down. These pre-Boomer fossils are only focused on micromanagement and keeping control until the day they literally die, and the Boomer generation isn't much more modern either. The result? Humble startups led by young people of a diverse background are eating their lunch left and right, and the Boomer+older generation are standing still, scratching their heads and wondering what's going on.
  - 6y ago

dominotw 6y ago

> Plus jumping on to a new project every few months keeps the work interesting But contractors are usually hired for their existing skilsets where they can jump in and start contributing immediately. So you end up doing similar projects. eg: If you are a backend programmer, no one will hire you to work on as a machine learning engineer on day rates. This is a big myth that contractors are working on something new and exciting every few months. Most of contracting work is short term grunt work. > rather than stagnating at the same desk for years on end. No its the opposite. Companies invest in training and take a chance on you doing something new inside in the company.

Nursie 6y ago
All I have to say to that is "You'd be surprised", particularly when you get a reputation for picking up new things quickly. > Companies invest in training Literally never happened for me in 12 years of perm work, for large and small companies. Discounting trivial/patronising things like security training. I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor, just as I did when perm.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor Why would i hire a self trained machine learning engineer with no experience on high day rates when I can hire someone with experience. Ppl hiring contractors don't have time or patience for you to experiment with self training on their dime, I would hire a fulltimer if i have all the time and money for ppl to learn on the job.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Again, all I can really say is "You'd be surprised". I think ML is probably different, in that it's not something that can be just 'picked up' that easily (AFAICT). But it's honestly surprised me over the years how often my clients have said "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?"

viraptor 6y ago

> Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summer off to live on your accumulated war chest and chill out, it's amazing. If you can do that, that's amazing. Unfortunately many contractors fall into the "if I don't work I'm losing money" mentality and never stop. Then they start converting everything to how many days it cost them to earn and try to never spend money. I've seen it so many times and it's so unhealthy. Strangely it seems to mostly affect people who do get stupid-high rates. The most absurd case was a contractor guy in a big corp at lunch with employees from the same team - he was pulling 3x our employee rate equivalent and complaining how he can't afford to take any days off or he'd be "losing" his daily rate.

Nursie 6y ago
It's true, and you do get into "If I take the week off I'm losing £X!" headspace sometimes. But it's important to remember that if you don't take that week off, you're more likely to burn out. And it's also important to remember why you got into it in the first place - being able to take significant amounts of time between contracts was a big part of it for me. I intend to take three months downtime a little later this year.
compiler-guy 6y ago
This happens with everyone I know who is self employed. Lawyers, auto shop owners, repair shops. If you bill hourly, or by the job, it is very easy to calculate how much you lose by not working right now.

dom96 6y ago

As someone that is employed full-time in the UK I must say you (and others in this thread) have piqued my interest. I am still quite early in my career but the ability to choose contracts (and possibly even the tech stack) sounds like a dream. Do you or anyone else have advice on how to get started with becoming a contractors?

mpalfrey 6y ago
I would recommend doing your own research on this one. Contractor UK forums are worth reading - http://contractoruk.com http://contractoruk.com Contracting in the UK used to be pretty good. These days things have changed a lot with further IR35 crackdowns. I've investigated this a few times personally over the years and am a permanent employee still. Admittedly a few rungs up the corporate ladder these days, but contracting isn't the gravy train it used to be.

softveda 6y ago

The same in Australia. I doubled my income from going to contract work without even using a business/company structure. Long timers use a company structure for even better gains.