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Can you blame them though? Look at Python/Ruby where even non developers can sometimes understand the code and then look at some crazy Haskell/Lisp expression.

capableweb 5y ago
Yes, I do blame them for this because if you spend 10 minutes, any programmer can learn "some crazy lisp expressions" because they are not that crazy. This knee-jerk reaction you're having is exactly the ones I'm talking about :)
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  So you're saying there's absolutely no loss of readability in something like Lisp opposed to Python?
  - capableweb 5y ago
    I'd argue that because of the lightweightness of Lisp syntax compared to C-like languages, Lisp languages are easier to read. But then I'm a professional Clojure developer who used to do Golang, JavaScript and some other languages, but since couple of years ago only do Clojure and ClojureScript development, so I'm obviously biased. But then Python is probably the worst example to compare Lisps to, as Python sees whitespace as a significant character that can affect if the program can run or not.
  - monsieurbanana 5y ago
    Is there? I'm not convinced. I think a lot of the readability issues come from lisp syntax being unfamiliar, not from some intrinsic impenetrability. And then even more from being associated with functional programming, also unfamiliar to a lot of people. Look at common lisp nested for loop[0]. Are they really that hard to read? And then there's the minimalism of lisp syntax. Once you know how to call a function and the few data literals (list, vectors, set, ...), you know 90+% of the syntax. Compare with python, where you also need to learn class syntax, annotation syntax, for loops, if, while, comprehensions, etc. And the list keeps growing, there's new features being added continuously. In lisp, if the language introduces a new construct, it's still going to be just symbols in between two parenthesis. [0] https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/iteration.html#loop-3 https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/iteration.html#lo...
  - blandflakes 5y ago
    I'm sympathetic to the parents that it's not as bad as people say, but I'd definitely agree with you that syntax at least to me provides a lot of value. Of course, too much syntax is a problem in the other direction.

capableweb 5y ago

Yes, I do blame them for this because if you spend 10 minutes, any programmer can learn "some crazy lisp expressions" because they are not that crazy. This knee-jerk reaction you're having is exactly the ones I'm talking about :)

joelbluminator 5y ago
So you're saying there's absolutely no loss of readability in something like Lisp opposed to Python?
- capableweb 5y ago
  I'd argue that because of the lightweightness of Lisp syntax compared to C-like languages, Lisp languages are easier to read. But then I'm a professional Clojure developer who used to do Golang, JavaScript and some other languages, but since couple of years ago only do Clojure and ClojureScript development, so I'm obviously biased. But then Python is probably the worst example to compare Lisps to, as Python sees whitespace as a significant character that can affect if the program can run or not.
- monsieurbanana 5y ago
  Is there? I'm not convinced. I think a lot of the readability issues come from lisp syntax being unfamiliar, not from some intrinsic impenetrability. And then even more from being associated with functional programming, also unfamiliar to a lot of people. Look at common lisp nested for loop[0]. Are they really that hard to read? And then there's the minimalism of lisp syntax. Once you know how to call a function and the few data literals (list, vectors, set, ...), you know 90+% of the syntax. Compare with python, where you also need to learn class syntax, annotation syntax, for loops, if, while, comprehensions, etc. And the list keeps growing, there's new features being added continuously. In lisp, if the language introduces a new construct, it's still going to be just symbols in between two parenthesis. [0] https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/iteration.html#loop-3 https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/iteration.html#lo...
- blandflakes 5y ago
  I'm sympathetic to the parents that it's not as bad as people say, but I'd definitely agree with you that syntax at least to me provides a lot of value. Of course, too much syntax is a problem in the other direction.