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They do hold back PWA's though. They could offer opt-in push notifications for example. That's the only thing I miss as a solo web developer, and the only thing

They do hold back PWA's though. They could offer opt-in push notifications for example. That's the only thing I miss as a solo web developer, and the only thing the users of my websites want (functional notifications of course, not marketing). I'm not recreating my websites in app form just to have that. But Apple sure wants me to.

ianai 6y ago
As a user, I really don’t want PWAs having that ability.
- capableweb 6y ago
  If Apple allows PWA to use notifications, you as a user will have a choice to accept or deny it. If Apple doesn't allow PWA to use notifications (current situation), then neither the developer or you as a user have a choice. Guess which one is best for the users overall? Guess which one is best for Apple overall?
  - jonathanlydall 6y ago
    While I get the utility of push notifications and part of me likes the idea, it will get abused in the same way it was on desktop where every second website asks for permission to send you notifications or install a PWA to be able to do so. I suspect Apple has internally discussed it and concluded that it would too likely be abused and result in a poor user experience. Also, Apple deliberately does not like background connections for battery saving reasons which is why everyone is required to use their push service, meaning iOS maintains a single energy efficient connection instead of each app maintaining their own TCP connection which may have no regard for energy efficiency. I acknowledge it's possible that they don't want to remove reasons for people to rather make native apps, but given the other reasons, it would not be my first guess.
    - saurik 6y ago
      So have a global switch to turn off the ability to even ask; hell: make it default disabled for all I care... solving your petty "I don't want to be bothered by pop-ups" issue isn't even remotely complicated, and that this is a continual refrain preventing the world from having fully-functional applications for software you apparently don't want to use anyway is not just ridiculous and demoralizing, it is shameful.
    - ksec 6y ago
      Just allow push notification on WebApps but not on Safari.
      - spiderfarmer 6y ago
        Exactly, if it was only available for websites added to the homescreen I would jump from happiness for at least 24 hours.
    - MertsA 6y ago
      > it will get abused in the same way it was on desktop where every second website asks for permission to send you notifications I really wish Google would crack down on this between the Googlebot and Chrome. There's zero valid reason for a website to send a notification request without user action to initiate it. The Googlebot could record any unsolicited notification requests and negatively impact the ranking of those sites, it's a decent indicator of scammy sites to begin with. Not to mention blacklisting those sites from making a notification request to Chrome. Chrome could also just watch for notification requests no differently than how popups are blocked already. I'm sick of the hordes of websites constantly spamming those requests. What's sad is that I'll frequently see other users actually accepting those requests and getting a barrage of ads that they don't understand how to stop. This isn't rocket science to fix.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    I don't want a choice to accept or deny it. I am utterly fatigued of choice. I want no push notifications and no reminders that push notifications exist.
    - Dah00n 6y ago
      Then you could buy a Nokia 3310i. Problem solved.
      - prepend 6y ago
        Or I can buy an iPhone. Problem already solved.
        capableweb 6y ago
        But a lot of applications ask to send notifications on iOS, doesn't solve the problem as that person seems to not wanting to even be asked about it anywhere.
        morelisp 6y ago
        You're correct, even iOS is not good enough. If an app asks and it's not a messaging app, I usually uninstall it. I'd compromise on "Install" vs. "Install with Notifications" as two options when buying/downloading an app. But having to do any of the developer's administrative bullshit when I'm trying to use the app is disrepecting my time. Otherwise I don't want to see that shit until I go into a "Settings -> Notification" menu and explicitly enable it. And never in a web browser.
        capableweb 6y ago
        I hear you. But I think you're in the wrong thread, we were specifically discussing how Apple is making PWAs different from normal apps _just because_.
        6y ago
  - brnt 6y ago
    Browsers should again be user agents and just let me set a default. 'dont bother me with notification requests. ever.' is perfectly valid and implementable setting.
    - capableweb 6y ago
      Of course, I agree! But your comment is assuming the platform offers notifications in the first place. Apple has decided here that you should not even have a choice.
      - brnt 6y ago
        I agree! Apple seems to be forgetting that support does not equal a horrible user experience: they can simply set it to this default by default.
- ThatPlayer 6y ago
  Then don't use it and deny the notification permission like you can for normal apps. But if the users wants that ability they should have the option to enable it. I've made a messaging web application for my work, and notifications are important for a messaging app. Luckily it's a small business and everyone who needs to access it has an Android
floydnoel 6y ago
It’s really not too difficult to build webview based wrapper app around your website. I’ve done it many times, and then you can have notifications or any other native features you might need.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  It’s not hard, but it shouldn’t have to be a thing. I hate apps that are nothing more than a skin around the actual website.
- geofft 6y ago
  It's not an issue of it being technically hard - it defeats the whole point of using a PWA. Your users now need to download the app from the App Store and you're subject to App Store review policies.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  It's not hard to build, no. The hard thing is having to pay $100 per year to Apple and submit yourself to Apple's rules in their app store.

ianai 6y ago

As a user, I really don’t want PWAs having that ability.

capableweb 6y ago
If Apple allows PWA to use notifications, you as a user will have a choice to accept or deny it. If Apple doesn't allow PWA to use notifications (current situation), then neither the developer or you as a user have a choice. Guess which one is best for the users overall? Guess which one is best for Apple overall?
- jonathanlydall 6y ago
  While I get the utility of push notifications and part of me likes the idea, it will get abused in the same way it was on desktop where every second website asks for permission to send you notifications or install a PWA to be able to do so. I suspect Apple has internally discussed it and concluded that it would too likely be abused and result in a poor user experience. Also, Apple deliberately does not like background connections for battery saving reasons which is why everyone is required to use their push service, meaning iOS maintains a single energy efficient connection instead of each app maintaining their own TCP connection which may have no regard for energy efficiency. I acknowledge it's possible that they don't want to remove reasons for people to rather make native apps, but given the other reasons, it would not be my first guess.
  - saurik 6y ago
    So have a global switch to turn off the ability to even ask; hell: make it default disabled for all I care... solving your petty "I don't want to be bothered by pop-ups" issue isn't even remotely complicated, and that this is a continual refrain preventing the world from having fully-functional applications for software you apparently don't want to use anyway is not just ridiculous and demoralizing, it is shameful.
  - ksec 6y ago
    Just allow push notification on WebApps but not on Safari.
    - spiderfarmer 6y ago
      Exactly, if it was only available for websites added to the homescreen I would jump from happiness for at least 24 hours.
  - MertsA 6y ago
    > it will get abused in the same way it was on desktop where every second website asks for permission to send you notifications I really wish Google would crack down on this between the Googlebot and Chrome. There's zero valid reason for a website to send a notification request without user action to initiate it. The Googlebot could record any unsolicited notification requests and negatively impact the ranking of those sites, it's a decent indicator of scammy sites to begin with. Not to mention blacklisting those sites from making a notification request to Chrome. Chrome could also just watch for notification requests no differently than how popups are blocked already. I'm sick of the hordes of websites constantly spamming those requests. What's sad is that I'll frequently see other users actually accepting those requests and getting a barrage of ads that they don't understand how to stop. This isn't rocket science to fix.
- morelisp 6y ago
  I don't want a choice to accept or deny it. I am utterly fatigued of choice. I want no push notifications and no reminders that push notifications exist.
  - Dah00n 6y ago
    Then you could buy a Nokia 3310i. Problem solved.
    - prepend 6y ago
      Or I can buy an iPhone. Problem already solved.
      - capableweb 6y ago
        But a lot of applications ask to send notifications on iOS, doesn't solve the problem as that person seems to not wanting to even be asked about it anywhere.
        morelisp 6y ago
        You're correct, even iOS is not good enough. If an app asks and it's not a messaging app, I usually uninstall it. I'd compromise on "Install" vs. "Install with Notifications" as two options when buying/downloading an app. But having to do any of the developer's administrative bullshit when I'm trying to use the app is disrepecting my time. Otherwise I don't want to see that shit until I go into a "Settings -> Notification" menu and explicitly enable it. And never in a web browser.
        capableweb 6y ago
        I hear you. But I think you're in the wrong thread, we were specifically discussing how Apple is making PWAs different from normal apps _just because_.
        6y ago
- brnt 6y ago
  Browsers should again be user agents and just let me set a default. 'dont bother me with notification requests. ever.' is perfectly valid and implementable setting.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    Of course, I agree! But your comment is assuming the platform offers notifications in the first place. Apple has decided here that you should not even have a choice.
    - brnt 6y ago
      I agree! Apple seems to be forgetting that support does not equal a horrible user experience: they can simply set it to this default by default.
ThatPlayer 6y ago
Then don't use it and deny the notification permission like you can for normal apps. But if the users wants that ability they should have the option to enable it. I've made a messaging web application for my work, and notifications are important for a messaging app. Luckily it's a small business and everyone who needs to access it has an Android

floydnoel 6y ago

It’s really not too difficult to build webview based wrapper app around your website. I’ve done it many times, and then you can have notifications or any other native features you might need.

colejohnson66 6y ago
It’s not hard, but it shouldn’t have to be a thing. I hate apps that are nothing more than a skin around the actual website.
geofft 6y ago
It's not an issue of it being technically hard - it defeats the whole point of using a PWA. Your users now need to download the app from the App Store and you're subject to App Store review policies.
wayneftw 6y ago
It's not hard to build, no. The hard thing is having to pay $100 per year to Apple and submit yourself to Apple's rules in their app store.