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> I like apps that keep my data on my phone. I like apps that act like apps, and sites that act like sites. There's a reason we don't drive-by install apps on

by slver 5y ago

> I like apps that keep my data on my phone. I like apps that act like apps, and sites that act like sites. There's a reason we don't drive-by install apps on our phone just by clicking a link. But you do drive-by install site local storage on your phone by clicking a link. So you need a way to clean those up at the very least. > But this just means a further push to develope a "real app" inside apples walled garden, for a proper functioning app. You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store if that's what you want. And store infinite data for infinite time. So everything is already possible. So you don't have to develop an app in the walled garden, you just have to submit it to the walled garden, and not do something horrible using the native APIs, and you're done.

hutzlibu 5y ago
The point of PWA'S are, that if I develope one, I don't have to go to Apples app store. I as a web developer don't know how it works and I don't want to have to know, how it works specifically. Neither do I want to target Microsoft's plattform nor Googles Playstore and figure them out. I want to target the web. So anyone with a decent browser can use my app. PWA'S are not simple websites. They are more. A plattform independent application with web technology.
- slver 5y ago
  > The point of PWA'S are, that if I develope one, I don't have to go to Apples app store. I as a web developer don't know how it works and I don't want to have to know Unfortunately that's often what it comes down to. Developers who don't care about the devices they target and their software stack. Developers should be open to learn new tech, before they reject it. Sure, go the web app route, but don't do it because you look at iOS and the App Store and you "don't know how it works and don't want to have to know". To me it's not surprising Google wants everything to be a browser with rich permissions that easy to track, search index, put ads on and monetize. This is why they want powerful PWA. This is why Chromebooks are basically... a browser. Apple on the other hand has crafted a platform optimized for their philosophy of UX and design. And which is often incompatible with these PWA standards that have emerged, which are often honestly sloppy and indiscriminate in wasting a user's power, bandwidth and leeching their private data. Apple and Google have diametrically opposed goals here. - Apple wants a free and powerful web, but not a web so powerful it takes over your entire phone, because let's face it, the web is a giant balls of kludges, it's a miracle they work at all. - Apple wants to save battery, to value user's privacy, and to allow the device to use its full potential through native APIs that are integrated with hardware functions etc. but not abused (which happens without at least cursory review process). - Google doesn't care about wasting power, doesn't care about privacy, they run an ad business and a search engine. They want three things: 1. Everything everywhere should be the web. 2. The web should have access to everything on your device. 3. Google should own the web.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    So you are saying, that I as a Web developer should just become a native app developer? Well no, thanks. I know that native apps are superior in performance over web apps, sure. And I certainly won't say every app has to become a pwa. But for most simple apps, webtechnologies as a plattform are mature and performant enough. And if you never would want to install one - thats your decision. But my decision is, that I don't want to specifically target apple technology. Just like with Microsoft, Samsung, LG, Google or whoever wants to copy apples walled garden. I like plattform independent.
    - slver 5y ago
      All right, so you know native apps are better, but you don't care. So you put yourself before your users. But you don't like Apple puts themselves & their users before you. Turns out users should side with Apple in this case...
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        Wow. So we are down to insults? Well then: how about you as a apple user only care about yourself and want every developer to cater for your special needs? And don't care that most of the world has no apple device (and maybe don't want to, or can't afford). And I as a developer want to target a neutral plattform. Because I care about all my potential users and not just apple and android ones. It does not have to be the web. But this is currently the best we have. Feel free to propose a better standard. And like I said: for full performance there are native apps. For best portability there is the web. I like choices.
        slver 5y ago
        I’m not sure that was an insult. It was just a honest assessment. Everyone cares about themselves. But Apple has to put users before developers.
        hutzlibu 5y ago
- barnabee 5y ago
  I do not want you, as a web developer to be able to target my device with an app when I visit your link. I don’t want to be forced to deny access to every service/feature on the device via pop-ups either. Until there’s a proper open standard for “web technology” apps that are opt-in and user initiated, and clearly separated (visually and technically) from web pages (which are documents) I feel like Apple are on my side here. I want app developers to jump through more hoops than people making websites, and to need my express approval to run their app on my device. I absolutely do not want documents that “progressively” turn into apps. PWA is a bug not a feature.
  - simion314 5y ago
    >from web pages (which are documents) Why would a document have access to your camera and microphone? I am 100% sure Apple would remove the camera and microphone API from iOS browsers if they could and the fanboys would defend it with "think about children and grandmas". The Web has a portion that is more then documents, like music/video , games, simulations/animations. It makes sense from the POV of a greedy corporation to cripple say a web streaming app so you get a 30% cut of the subscriptions, or cripple video games 3d performance (with terrilble webgl) so you get 30% of those sweet lootboxes and gems.(BTW why is Apple not thinking at children with the lootboxes stuff?)
    - barnabee 5y ago
      Lots of reasons a document might user my camera - to fill in a form, for example. Obviously there’s a blurry line between document and app, and for some use cases it makes sense to be more app-like. I’m very fine with this blurry line, and using web tech for all these things, even full apps if you want, as long as you don’t expect access to intrusive or persistent features when I browse to your website, but only when I decide to install/allow your “app”. Whether Apple is obliged to provide a platform in which web tech used in apps matches native performance and features… I don’t see why they should be, though it’d be nice. I totally agree forcing all apps via the App Store is bad btw. Alternative app stores and side loading should probably be allowed, but that doesn’t mean the answer is more ways for websites to intrude and behave badly in the browser.
Jochim 5y ago
> You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store if that's what you want. And store infinite data for infinite time. So everything is already possible. Except now you're paying $100/year and giving up 30% of any revenue for the privilege of allowing your users to store data on their phone? I think local storage could use some improvements, especially with regard to giving users more control over what is stored there, but it provides much more freedom than participating in Apple's app store.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
madpata 5y ago
> You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store For example Apple's store doesn't want these web wrappers: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#minimum-functionality https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#min...

by slver 5y ago

hutzlibu 5y ago

The point of PWA'S are, that if I develope one, I don't have to go to Apples app store. I as a web developer don't know how it works and I don't want to have to know, how it works specifically. Neither do I want to target Microsoft's plattform nor Googles Playstore and figure them out. I want to target the web. So anyone with a decent browser can use my app. PWA'S are not simple websites. They are more. A plattform independent application with web technology.

slver 5y ago
> The point of PWA'S are, that if I develope one, I don't have to go to Apples app store. I as a web developer don't know how it works and I don't want to have to know Unfortunately that's often what it comes down to. Developers who don't care about the devices they target and their software stack. Developers should be open to learn new tech, before they reject it. Sure, go the web app route, but don't do it because you look at iOS and the App Store and you "don't know how it works and don't want to have to know". To me it's not surprising Google wants everything to be a browser with rich permissions that easy to track, search index, put ads on and monetize. This is why they want powerful PWA. This is why Chromebooks are basically... a browser. Apple on the other hand has crafted a platform optimized for their philosophy of UX and design. And which is often incompatible with these PWA standards that have emerged, which are often honestly sloppy and indiscriminate in wasting a user's power, bandwidth and leeching their private data. Apple and Google have diametrically opposed goals here. - Apple wants a free and powerful web, but not a web so powerful it takes over your entire phone, because let's face it, the web is a giant balls of kludges, it's a miracle they work at all. - Apple wants to save battery, to value user's privacy, and to allow the device to use its full potential through native APIs that are integrated with hardware functions etc. but not abused (which happens without at least cursory review process). - Google doesn't care about wasting power, doesn't care about privacy, they run an ad business and a search engine. They want three things: 1. Everything everywhere should be the web. 2. The web should have access to everything on your device. 3. Google should own the web.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  So you are saying, that I as a Web developer should just become a native app developer? Well no, thanks. I know that native apps are superior in performance over web apps, sure. And I certainly won't say every app has to become a pwa. But for most simple apps, webtechnologies as a plattform are mature and performant enough. And if you never would want to install one - thats your decision. But my decision is, that I don't want to specifically target apple technology. Just like with Microsoft, Samsung, LG, Google or whoever wants to copy apples walled garden. I like plattform independent.
  - slver 5y ago
    All right, so you know native apps are better, but you don't care. So you put yourself before your users. But you don't like Apple puts themselves & their users before you. Turns out users should side with Apple in this case...
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Wow. So we are down to insults? Well then: how about you as a apple user only care about yourself and want every developer to cater for your special needs? And don't care that most of the world has no apple device (and maybe don't want to, or can't afford). And I as a developer want to target a neutral plattform. Because I care about all my potential users and not just apple and android ones. It does not have to be the web. But this is currently the best we have. Feel free to propose a better standard. And like I said: for full performance there are native apps. For best portability there is the web. I like choices.
      - slver 5y ago
        I’m not sure that was an insult. It was just a honest assessment. Everyone cares about themselves. But Apple has to put users before developers.
        hutzlibu 5y ago
barnabee 5y ago
I do not want you, as a web developer to be able to target my device with an app when I visit your link. I don’t want to be forced to deny access to every service/feature on the device via pop-ups either. Until there’s a proper open standard for “web technology” apps that are opt-in and user initiated, and clearly separated (visually and technically) from web pages (which are documents) I feel like Apple are on my side here. I want app developers to jump through more hoops than people making websites, and to need my express approval to run their app on my device. I absolutely do not want documents that “progressively” turn into apps. PWA is a bug not a feature.
- simion314 5y ago
  >from web pages (which are documents) Why would a document have access to your camera and microphone? I am 100% sure Apple would remove the camera and microphone API from iOS browsers if they could and the fanboys would defend it with "think about children and grandmas". The Web has a portion that is more then documents, like music/video , games, simulations/animations. It makes sense from the POV of a greedy corporation to cripple say a web streaming app so you get a 30% cut of the subscriptions, or cripple video games 3d performance (with terrilble webgl) so you get 30% of those sweet lootboxes and gems.(BTW why is Apple not thinking at children with the lootboxes stuff?)
  - barnabee 5y ago
    Lots of reasons a document might user my camera - to fill in a form, for example. Obviously there’s a blurry line between document and app, and for some use cases it makes sense to be more app-like. I’m very fine with this blurry line, and using web tech for all these things, even full apps if you want, as long as you don’t expect access to intrusive or persistent features when I browse to your website, but only when I decide to install/allow your “app”. Whether Apple is obliged to provide a platform in which web tech used in apps matches native performance and features… I don’t see why they should be, though it’d be nice. I totally agree forcing all apps via the App Store is bad btw. Alternative app stores and side loading should probably be allowed, but that doesn’t mean the answer is more ways for websites to intrude and behave badly in the browser.

Jochim 5y ago

> You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store if that's what you want. And store infinite data for infinite time. So everything is already possible. Except now you're paying $100/year and giving up 30% of any revenue for the privilege of allowing your users to store data on their phone? I think local storage could use some improvements, especially with regard to giving users more control over what is stored there, but it provides much more freedom than participating in Apple's app store.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

madpata 5y ago

> You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store For example Apple's store doesn't want these web wrappers: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#minimum-functionality https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#min...