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"Local storage is intended to be cache. Nothing more. If you have something worth preserving beyond 7 days of inactivity, put it on the damn server and reload i

"Local storage is intended to be cache. Nothing more. If you have something worth preserving beyond 7 days of inactivity, put it on the damn server and reload it when you have to." How about the idea that not everything must live in the cloud? I like apps that keep my data on my phone. Or when you use your phone in areas with bad connections? Say an outdoor app, you have on your phone with lots of data you specifically wanted for this area. In case you need it. But now you have to remember to use it regulary, or you have to walk up an mountain to get parts of your old state again. There is a difference between temporary cache and intentionally saved data. Even from webapps. But this just means a further push to develope a "real app" inside apples walled garden, for a proper functioning app. (assumed this auto delete of all pwa cache is actually the case, and it would be allright with me, if there are exceptions for "installed PWA's")

slver 6y ago
> I like apps that keep my data on my phone. I like apps that act like apps, and sites that act like sites. There's a reason we don't drive-by install apps on our phone just by clicking a link. But you do drive-by install site local storage on your phone by clicking a link. So you need a way to clean those up at the very least. > But this just means a further push to develope a "real app" inside apples walled garden, for a proper functioning app. You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store if that's what you want. And store infinite data for infinite time. So everything is already possible. So you don't have to develop an app in the walled garden, you just have to submit it to the walled garden, and not do something horrible using the native APIs, and you're done.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  The point of PWA'S are, that if I develope one, I don't have to go to Apples app store. I as a web developer don't know how it works and I don't want to have to know, how it works specifically. Neither do I want to target Microsoft's plattform nor Googles Playstore and figure them out. I want to target the web. So anyone with a decent browser can use my app. PWA'S are not simple websites. They are more. A plattform independent application with web technology.
  - slver 6y ago
    > The point of PWA'S are, that if I develope one, I don't have to go to Apples app store. I as a web developer don't know how it works and I don't want to have to know Unfortunately that's often what it comes down to. Developers who don't care about the devices they target and their software stack. Developers should be open to learn new tech, before they reject it. Sure, go the web app route, but don't do it because you look at iOS and the App Store and you "don't know how it works and don't want to have to know". To me it's not surprising Google wants everything to be a browser with rich permissions that easy to track, search index, put ads on and monetize. This is why they want powerful PWA. This is why Chromebooks are basically... a browser. Apple on the other hand has crafted a platform optimized for their philosophy of UX and design. And which is often incompatible with these PWA standards that have emerged, which are often honestly sloppy and indiscriminate in wasting a user's power, bandwidth and leeching their private data. Apple and Google have diametrically opposed goals here. - Apple wants a free and powerful web, but not a web so powerful it takes over your entire phone, because let's face it, the web is a giant balls of kludges, it's a miracle they work at all. - Apple wants to save battery, to value user's privacy, and to allow the device to use its full potential through native APIs that are integrated with hardware functions etc. but not abused (which happens without at least cursory review process). - Google doesn't care about wasting power, doesn't care about privacy, they run an ad business and a search engine. They want three things: 1. Everything everywhere should be the web. 2. The web should have access to everything on your device. 3. Google should own the web.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      So you are saying, that I as a Web developer should just become a native app developer? Well no, thanks. I know that native apps are superior in performance over web apps, sure. And I certainly won't say every app has to become a pwa. But for most simple apps, webtechnologies as a plattform are mature and performant enough. And if you never would want to install one - thats your decision. But my decision is, that I don't want to specifically target apple technology. Just like with Microsoft, Samsung, LG, Google or whoever wants to copy apples walled garden. I like plattform independent.
- Jochim 6y ago
  > You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store if that's what you want. And store infinite data for infinite time. So everything is already possible. Except now you're paying $100/year and giving up 30% of any revenue for the privilege of allowing your users to store data on their phone? I think local storage could use some improvements, especially with regard to giving users more control over what is stored there, but it provides much more freedom than participating in Apple's app store.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- madpata 6y ago
  > You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store For example Apple's store doesn't want these web wrappers: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#minimum-functionality https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#min...
signal11 6y ago
> How about the idea that not everything must live in the cloud? Yes, and you should take the trouble to install those 'things'. Or host on a server you control. The notion that a remote website has persistent storage rights on my device because I visited it a while back is ... odd.
- nl 6y ago
  The whole point of a PWA is that it's a website that can turn into a local application. It's even in the name. It's reasonable to think there should be some user controllable "install" process to enable this. But it's also reasonable that an application should have permanent local storage in some cases.
  - barnabee 6y ago
    Local storage is persistent when you add a page / app to the home screen (ie take the step to install and enable it as an “app”) and only gets cleared after a while when the site is browsed as a website in Safari. This, as a user and as a reasonable developer, seems exactly right. The “progressive” part happens when I want it to and initiated by me, so the developer can’t shove it down my throat or trick me into enabling their “app”. So much of this argument is down to entitled web devs and companies that want to take advantage of the fact I’m reading their website to start installing software, sending notifications, reading from sensors etc. without permission. That’s not an application it’s malware.
zozbot234 6y ago
> How about the idea that not everything must live in the cloud? > I like apps that keep my data on my phone. LocalStorage is simply not appropriate for this. The act of keeping persistent data should be transparent to the user, via "download" (save to disk) and "upload" (load from disk) workflows. This also allows the user to manage e.g. their own backups for this data, which they can't via localstorage.
- oblio 6y ago
  > The act of keeping persistent data should be transparent to the user, via "download" (save to disk) and "upload" (load from disk) workflows. That's horrible. If native apps would have to work like this to persist anything, instead of billions of users worldwide, they'd probably have 50-100x fewer users.
  - ElFitz 6y ago
    Except they already do, implicitly, at least for the download part. Users actively go to their App Store and choose to download an app. They don’t just get something installed, or not, in some obscure part of their device’s storage, without ever knowing about it.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      "They don’t just get something installed, or not, in some obscure part of their device’s storage, without ever knowing about it. " Like I said in the originally statement: it would be allright for me, if apple and everyone else, regulary deletes all local storage of any pwa's that haven't been installed. And I have read nowhere here in this thread, that anyone is in favor of PWA's sneakily installing. Yes, it should be very clear and visible, when you install something. But that is for the browser/OS makers to implement and not the issue here.
      - ElFitz 6y ago
        Yours is not the comment I was replying to. Perhaps I misread, but the parent seems horrified at the idea that users should get to know they are downloading something and that such knowledge would supposedly ruin native apps adoption. I was merely pointing out that it already is, albeit partially, the case, and yet said apps are quite popular.
brnt 6y ago
> I like apps that keep my data on my phone. The paradox is that you have far less control with an app, and most come with even more analytics than a webpage. Apps in the Play and App stores don't make me feel any better than PWAs, quite the contrary. I've a LineageOS phone and use apps from F-droid to have a modicum of control and privacy, coupled with an ability to have it be usable without network.

slver 6y ago

> I like apps that keep my data on my phone. I like apps that act like apps, and sites that act like sites. There's a reason we don't drive-by install apps on our phone just by clicking a link. But you do drive-by install site local storage on your phone by clicking a link. So you need a way to clean those up at the very least. > But this just means a further push to develope a "real app" inside apples walled garden, for a proper functioning app. You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store if that's what you want. And store infinite data for infinite time. So everything is already possible. So you don't have to develop an app in the walled garden, you just have to submit it to the walled garden, and not do something horrible using the native APIs, and you're done.

hutzlibu 6y ago
The point of PWA'S are, that if I develope one, I don't have to go to Apples app store. I as a web developer don't know how it works and I don't want to have to know, how it works specifically. Neither do I want to target Microsoft's plattform nor Googles Playstore and figure them out. I want to target the web. So anyone with a decent browser can use my app. PWA'S are not simple websites. They are more. A plattform independent application with web technology.
- slver 6y ago
  > The point of PWA'S are, that if I develope one, I don't have to go to Apples app store. I as a web developer don't know how it works and I don't want to have to know Unfortunately that's often what it comes down to. Developers who don't care about the devices they target and their software stack. Developers should be open to learn new tech, before they reject it. Sure, go the web app route, but don't do it because you look at iOS and the App Store and you "don't know how it works and don't want to have to know". To me it's not surprising Google wants everything to be a browser with rich permissions that easy to track, search index, put ads on and monetize. This is why they want powerful PWA. This is why Chromebooks are basically... a browser. Apple on the other hand has crafted a platform optimized for their philosophy of UX and design. And which is often incompatible with these PWA standards that have emerged, which are often honestly sloppy and indiscriminate in wasting a user's power, bandwidth and leeching their private data. Apple and Google have diametrically opposed goals here. - Apple wants a free and powerful web, but not a web so powerful it takes over your entire phone, because let's face it, the web is a giant balls of kludges, it's a miracle they work at all. - Apple wants to save battery, to value user's privacy, and to allow the device to use its full potential through native APIs that are integrated with hardware functions etc. but not abused (which happens without at least cursory review process). - Google doesn't care about wasting power, doesn't care about privacy, they run an ad business and a search engine. They want three things: 1. Everything everywhere should be the web. 2. The web should have access to everything on your device. 3. Google should own the web.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    So you are saying, that I as a Web developer should just become a native app developer? Well no, thanks. I know that native apps are superior in performance over web apps, sure. And I certainly won't say every app has to become a pwa. But for most simple apps, webtechnologies as a plattform are mature and performant enough. And if you never would want to install one - thats your decision. But my decision is, that I don't want to specifically target apple technology. Just like with Microsoft, Samsung, LG, Google or whoever wants to copy apples walled garden. I like plattform independent.
Jochim 6y ago
> You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store if that's what you want. And store infinite data for infinite time. So everything is already possible. Except now you're paying $100/year and giving up 30% of any revenue for the privilege of allowing your users to store data on their phone? I think local storage could use some improvements, especially with regard to giving users more control over what is stored there, but it provides much more freedom than participating in Apple's app store.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
madpata 6y ago
> You can also wrap a page as an app on the App Store For example Apple's store doesn't want these web wrappers: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#minimum-functionality https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#min...

signal11 6y ago

> How about the idea that not everything must live in the cloud? Yes, and you should take the trouble to install those 'things'. Or host on a server you control. The notion that a remote website has persistent storage rights on my device because I visited it a while back is ... odd.

nl 6y ago
The whole point of a PWA is that it's a website that can turn into a local application. It's even in the name. It's reasonable to think there should be some user controllable "install" process to enable this. But it's also reasonable that an application should have permanent local storage in some cases.
- barnabee 6y ago
  Local storage is persistent when you add a page / app to the home screen (ie take the step to install and enable it as an “app”) and only gets cleared after a while when the site is browsed as a website in Safari. This, as a user and as a reasonable developer, seems exactly right. The “progressive” part happens when I want it to and initiated by me, so the developer can’t shove it down my throat or trick me into enabling their “app”. So much of this argument is down to entitled web devs and companies that want to take advantage of the fact I’m reading their website to start installing software, sending notifications, reading from sensors etc. without permission. That’s not an application it’s malware.

zozbot234 6y ago

> How about the idea that not everything must live in the cloud? > I like apps that keep my data on my phone. LocalStorage is simply not appropriate for this. The act of keeping persistent data should be transparent to the user, via "download" (save to disk) and "upload" (load from disk) workflows. This also allows the user to manage e.g. their own backups for this data, which they can't via localstorage.

oblio 6y ago
> The act of keeping persistent data should be transparent to the user, via "download" (save to disk) and "upload" (load from disk) workflows. That's horrible. If native apps would have to work like this to persist anything, instead of billions of users worldwide, they'd probably have 50-100x fewer users.
- ElFitz 6y ago
  Except they already do, implicitly, at least for the download part. Users actively go to their App Store and choose to download an app. They don’t just get something installed, or not, in some obscure part of their device’s storage, without ever knowing about it.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "They don’t just get something installed, or not, in some obscure part of their device’s storage, without ever knowing about it. " Like I said in the originally statement: it would be allright for me, if apple and everyone else, regulary deletes all local storage of any pwa's that haven't been installed. And I have read nowhere here in this thread, that anyone is in favor of PWA's sneakily installing. Yes, it should be very clear and visible, when you install something. But that is for the browser/OS makers to implement and not the issue here.
    - ElFitz 6y ago
      Yours is not the comment I was replying to. Perhaps I misread, but the parent seems horrified at the idea that users should get to know they are downloading something and that such knowledge would supposedly ruin native apps adoption. I was merely pointing out that it already is, albeit partially, the case, and yet said apps are quite popular.

brnt 6y ago

> I like apps that keep my data on my phone. The paradox is that you have far less control with an app, and most come with even more analytics than a webpage. Apps in the Play and App stores don't make me feel any better than PWAs, quite the contrary. I've a LineageOS phone and use apps from F-droid to have a modicum of control and privacy, coupled with an ability to have it be usable without network.