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I disagree. Depression appeared in humans for a reason. It is possible that one of the results of it, and the reason it sticks around is because there is value

I disagree. Depression appeared in humans for a reason. It is possible that one of the results of it, and the reason it sticks around is because there is value to it, even if it is exceedingly painful. Regardless, having a reason to endure, even if incorrect, has value in and of itself, even if you don't see it.

bawolff 5y ago
Naturalistic fallacy. Plenty of things appeared in humans for no positive reason. Its not like smallpox was valuable it some point. Its possible that depression has some positive function, but its just as possible it does not.
- gustavo-fring 5y ago
  I didn't say it was a good reason.
  - 3grdlurker 5y ago
    But what else could it be? You can’t just say that something has an evolutionary cause without also implying that the trait is for the purpose of survivability, which we associate with the notion of “good”.
    - gustavo-fring 5y ago
      Cancer has an evolutionary cause, that doesn't mean we associate it with good.
      - sturza 5y ago
        I actually am interested of understand more of where this statement comes from.
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Well strictly speaking, nothing in evolution happens for a reason - this isn't intellegent design, there is no agency or intentionality in evolution. So if you didn't mean the usual metaphorical notion of, "was selected for by natural selection because it increased evolutionary fitness", what did you mean?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - unishark 5y ago
      Well I can imagine a couple, though I don't have any particular reason to prefer them. If people who are unsuccessful in achieving status in their tribe or whatever (totally independent of their fitness otherwise) become depressed and as a result don't reproduce, children are more likely to be born to parents who can provide for them. All the suffering could just be side effects that are besides the evolutionary "goal". Sort of like how poisoning causes you to suffer a wide range of uncomfortable effects (nausea, vertigo), when perhaps the only real evolutionary "goal was to make you vomit the poison. I think the prior poster may have been making a point more along the lines that depression is a downside of having benefits like neural plasticity or something, not that this disease state is necessarily beneficial in itself. More like how the downside of having high-performance tires is poor rain traction or something.
      - scatters 5y ago
        How does that constitute an evolutionary model? The genes for depression reach a dead end in the people who didn't reproduce; they aren't being passed on in the children of the people who did. Is this a kin or group selection model?
        unishark 5y ago
        I assume you're talking about the first one? Having the gene for depression here would not always cause the individual to be depressed. Actually that would hold for both cases. The trait is passed on because it benefits the species. You have to consider more than individuals in the evolution of social animals. In various circumstances some organisms will eat their own offspring. Obviously the "infanticide gene" if considered alone, would not make evolutionary sense, yet there it is.
anoncake 5y ago
Or, more likely, it's simply a result of the brain not being perfectly "designed".
- gustavo-fring 5y ago
  Or, more likely, we don't know right now.
  - anoncake 5y ago
    What possible value could depression have?
    - gustavo-fring 5y ago
      Resilience, endurance, learning to overcome adversity, learning to overcome yourself, learning to be self-aware, thinking "differently". I could think of dozens of other reasons. No?
      - anoncake 5y ago
        > Resilience, endurance Literal survivor's bias. If you are depressed but not resilient, you kill yourself. > learning to overcome adversity, learning to overcome yourself Overcoming adversity requires doing something. Depression prevents that. > learning to be self-aware I wish. > thinking "differently". In what way?
        bigfudge 5y ago
        Relative To the numbers of people depressed, very few people kill themselves so I can’t see that this is a counter argument.
        anoncake 5y ago
        "Just" 20%. https://www.medscape.com/answers/286759-14675/what-is-the-suicide-rate-among-persons-with-depressive-disorder-clinical-depression https://www.medscape.com/answers/286759-14675/what-is-the-su...
coding123 5y ago
I absolutely agree with this. Depression is a wide array of emotions - and emotions have driven pretty much all human development to this point.
- anoncake 5y ago
  > Depression is a wide array of emotions Where did you get that absurd idea from?
tsimionescu 5y ago
What exactly do you disagree with? The GP claimed that depression is a terrible malady, without any comment on why it exists. How is your tangent about a "reason" for depression in disagreement with what they said?
- gustavo-fring 5y ago
  "There is no reason to create silly rationales to justify it." I don't agree with that and I don't agree with how it is stated. It's an absolutist statement (poster is not an expert) and it is dismissive via "silly". I don't understand your objection. I don't understand the pedantry across this entire thread over like two or three words that aren't even wrong. Just read the extra sentence in the post. I know this sounds rude, but how many arguments are we going to have over bikeshedding? It's like yall are looking for things to jump on and bully people about without any empathy. I don't personally care but I don't understand why you do it. This is what I'm talking about. You guys can't imagine any way in which depressions might provide benefits? That's how multiple people in this thread have acted. But maybe, just maybe, people that are depressed have a different perspective on life and maybe feel differently. What is the issue?
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    > You guys can't imagine any way in which depressions might provide benefits? That's how multiple people in this thread have acted. But maybe, just maybe, people that are depressed have a different perspective on life and maybe feel differently. Yes, my own experiences with depression in those around me (thankfully not in myself) have left me seeing no way in which depression provides benefits. It is a terrible debilitating disease (or symptom, or whatever it is) that literally saps people of their will to do anything regardless of external stimuli. I find it very hard to imagine something so maladaptive being presented as possibly useful. I would guess that sentiments like this are the main reason behind the powerful response to your thread. It is almost like claiming that "there is a reason for cancer". Edit: I would also note that it's possible that we're simply talking past each other, as the term "depression" actually covers some quite different disorders; it's possible that what you're thinking of when you use this word is different from what I'm thinking of - to me, it mostly refers to a disorder where people feel either deeply sad or deeply anxious, but either way they are lacking almost entirely in motivation, finding it hard to even get out of bed sometimes; and all this with little relation to external stimuli.
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
I'm convinced it's hibernation/torpor. No food? No opportunities? Must be winter. Go to sleep. Wait for spring.

bawolff 5y ago

Naturalistic fallacy. Plenty of things appeared in humans for no positive reason. Its not like smallpox was valuable it some point. Its possible that depression has some positive function, but its just as possible it does not.

gustavo-fring 5y ago
I didn't say it was a good reason.
- 3grdlurker 5y ago
  But what else could it be? You can’t just say that something has an evolutionary cause without also implying that the trait is for the purpose of survivability, which we associate with the notion of “good”.
  - gustavo-fring 5y ago
    Cancer has an evolutionary cause, that doesn't mean we associate it with good.
    - sturza 5y ago
      I actually am interested of understand more of where this statement comes from.
- bawolff 5y ago
  Well strictly speaking, nothing in evolution happens for a reason - this isn't intellegent design, there is no agency or intentionality in evolution. So if you didn't mean the usual metaphorical notion of, "was selected for by natural selection because it increased evolutionary fitness", what did you mean?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - unishark 5y ago
    Well I can imagine a couple, though I don't have any particular reason to prefer them. If people who are unsuccessful in achieving status in their tribe or whatever (totally independent of their fitness otherwise) become depressed and as a result don't reproduce, children are more likely to be born to parents who can provide for them. All the suffering could just be side effects that are besides the evolutionary "goal". Sort of like how poisoning causes you to suffer a wide range of uncomfortable effects (nausea, vertigo), when perhaps the only real evolutionary "goal was to make you vomit the poison. I think the prior poster may have been making a point more along the lines that depression is a downside of having benefits like neural plasticity or something, not that this disease state is necessarily beneficial in itself. More like how the downside of having high-performance tires is poor rain traction or something.
    - scatters 5y ago
      How does that constitute an evolutionary model? The genes for depression reach a dead end in the people who didn't reproduce; they aren't being passed on in the children of the people who did. Is this a kin or group selection model?
      - unishark 5y ago
        I assume you're talking about the first one? Having the gene for depression here would not always cause the individual to be depressed. Actually that would hold for both cases. The trait is passed on because it benefits the species. You have to consider more than individuals in the evolution of social animals. In various circumstances some organisms will eat their own offspring. Obviously the "infanticide gene" if considered alone, would not make evolutionary sense, yet there it is.

anoncake 5y ago

Or, more likely, it's simply a result of the brain not being perfectly "designed".

gustavo-fring 5y ago
Or, more likely, we don't know right now.
- anoncake 5y ago
  What possible value could depression have?
  - gustavo-fring 5y ago
    Resilience, endurance, learning to overcome adversity, learning to overcome yourself, learning to be self-aware, thinking "differently". I could think of dozens of other reasons. No?
    - anoncake 5y ago
      > Resilience, endurance Literal survivor's bias. If you are depressed but not resilient, you kill yourself. > learning to overcome adversity, learning to overcome yourself Overcoming adversity requires doing something. Depression prevents that. > learning to be self-aware I wish. > thinking "differently". In what way?
      - bigfudge 5y ago
        Relative To the numbers of people depressed, very few people kill themselves so I can’t see that this is a counter argument.
        anoncake 5y ago
        "Just" 20%. https://www.medscape.com/answers/286759-14675/what-is-the-suicide-rate-among-persons-with-depressive-disorder-clinical-depression https://www.medscape.com/answers/286759-14675/what-is-the-su...

coding123 5y ago

I absolutely agree with this. Depression is a wide array of emotions - and emotions have driven pretty much all human development to this point.

anoncake 5y ago
> Depression is a wide array of emotions Where did you get that absurd idea from?

tsimionescu 5y ago

What exactly do you disagree with? The GP claimed that depression is a terrible malady, without any comment on why it exists. How is your tangent about a "reason" for depression in disagreement with what they said?

gustavo-fring 5y ago
"There is no reason to create silly rationales to justify it." I don't agree with that and I don't agree with how it is stated. It's an absolutist statement (poster is not an expert) and it is dismissive via "silly". I don't understand your objection. I don't understand the pedantry across this entire thread over like two or three words that aren't even wrong. Just read the extra sentence in the post. I know this sounds rude, but how many arguments are we going to have over bikeshedding? It's like yall are looking for things to jump on and bully people about without any empathy. I don't personally care but I don't understand why you do it. This is what I'm talking about. You guys can't imagine any way in which depressions might provide benefits? That's how multiple people in this thread have acted. But maybe, just maybe, people that are depressed have a different perspective on life and maybe feel differently. What is the issue?
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  > You guys can't imagine any way in which depressions might provide benefits? That's how multiple people in this thread have acted. But maybe, just maybe, people that are depressed have a different perspective on life and maybe feel differently. Yes, my own experiences with depression in those around me (thankfully not in myself) have left me seeing no way in which depression provides benefits. It is a terrible debilitating disease (or symptom, or whatever it is) that literally saps people of their will to do anything regardless of external stimuli. I find it very hard to imagine something so maladaptive being presented as possibly useful. I would guess that sentiments like this are the main reason behind the powerful response to your thread. It is almost like claiming that "there is a reason for cancer". Edit: I would also note that it's possible that we're simply talking past each other, as the term "depression" actually covers some quite different disorders; it's possible that what you're thinking of when you use this word is different from what I'm thinking of - to me, it mostly refers to a disorder where people feel either deeply sad or deeply anxious, but either way they are lacking almost entirely in motivation, finding it hard to even get out of bed sometimes; and all this with little relation to external stimuli.

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago

I'm convinced it's hibernation/torpor. No food? No opportunities? Must be winter. Go to sleep. Wait for spring.