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It would be great if they had an event like this for men who want to learn from the beginning, too. Obviously the same rules should go. Women could come, as g

It would be great if they had an event like this for men who want to learn from the beginning, too. Obviously the same rules should go. Women could come, as guests of the men.

teilo 15y ago
I see you had the bravery to make that statement without resorting to a one-time account, so your karma isn't effected. Bravo! Now here's my answer: This isn't about sexism. It's about the way a group of men behave when they are working in / learning a field of study where the overwhelming majority have, in the past, been men. It creates a lot of needless tension for the women in the group. Women stand a far better chance of learning to program when they are in a non-intimidating environment where they don't have to put up with a bunch of condescending jerks (take your pick): staring at them, competing with them, putting them in "their place", patronizing them. And this is not because they are women, but because enough of the guys are jerks. Reverse the roles, and this would be just as true.
- Troll_Whisperer 15y ago
  I see you had the bravery to make that statement without resorting to a one-time account, so your karma isn't effected. Bravo! Nothing I said was worthy of sarcasm. I would sincerely enjoy the opportunity to learn python from the ground up with that level of support and mentoring. And yes, it's a little disconcerting that some conferences would keep me out based on my anatomy. In the face of such support generated by this event, is it so bad to hope for an analogous event aimed at my demographic?
  - feralmoan 15y ago
    I challenge anyone to name an event where the sex of its attendees is of primary concern.
    - rada 15y ago
      When my husband joined a parent group, it was through an event aimed at seeking out and welcoming full-time dads. The group gained a few cool guys, the guys gained things to do with their little ones, everyone won.
- Helianthus 15y ago
  >Women stand a far better chance of learning to program when they are in a non-intimidating environment where they don't have to put up with a bunch of condescending jerks (take your pick): staring at them, competing with them, putting them in "their place", patronizing them. Hidden in that is the subtle assumption that women need to be protected. Particularly in the clause "competing with them," I find protectionism evident. Now, I'm not saying these groups shouldn't exist, or that they're wrong, or that a group of mostly men can and often does create a hostile environment for women. But your phrasing makes me uncomfortable, internally, as if I feel you're not quite leery enough of how much you're using sexism to combat sexism. There is nothing wrong with that, it is very pragmatic and a good chunk of the 'ism' reasoning behind affirmative action (which I generally support). But "Reverse the roles, and this would be just as true" is essentially saying "If men were women and women were men, we'd still be playing with standard gender roles, so it's fair!" which doesn't quite compute.
Goladus 15y ago
Would the instructors for your event be male or female?
- ned_batchelder 15y ago
  Most of the instructors are female, though there are a few men. Why do you ask?
  - Goladus 15y ago
    I was asking "Troll_Whisperer" about his hypothetical inverse event aimed at Men. I was not expecting a good answer because I was sure he had not thought through the idea in a meaningful way.
mitcheme 15y ago
Men are already the majority of programmers so this wouldn't be necessary, just reactionary (and you know it, too). I have no problem with workshops for men for skills which are traditionally dominated by women, since in many cases it makes for a more comfortable environment for men to start out in. I've seen men-only parenting classes and craft groups; there are probably others. Why is it so horrible to encourage people to try nontraditional hobbies and skills?

It would be great if they had an event like this for men who want to learn from the beginning, too. Obviously the same rules should go. Women could come, as guests of the men.

teilo 15y ago

I see you had the bravery to make that statement without resorting to a one-time account, so your karma isn't effected. Bravo! Now here's my answer: This isn't about sexism. It's about the way a group of men behave when they are working in / learning a field of study where the overwhelming majority have, in the past, been men. It creates a lot of needless tension for the women in the group. Women stand a far better chance of learning to program when they are in a non-intimidating environment where they don't have to put up with a bunch of condescending jerks (take your pick): staring at them, competing with them, putting them in "their place", patronizing them. And this is not because they are women, but because enough of the guys are jerks. Reverse the roles, and this would be just as true.

Troll_Whisperer 15y ago
I see you had the bravery to make that statement without resorting to a one-time account, so your karma isn't effected. Bravo! Nothing I said was worthy of sarcasm. I would sincerely enjoy the opportunity to learn python from the ground up with that level of support and mentoring. And yes, it's a little disconcerting that some conferences would keep me out based on my anatomy. In the face of such support generated by this event, is it so bad to hope for an analogous event aimed at my demographic?
- feralmoan 15y ago
  I challenge anyone to name an event where the sex of its attendees is of primary concern.
  - rada 15y ago
    When my husband joined a parent group, it was through an event aimed at seeking out and welcoming full-time dads. The group gained a few cool guys, the guys gained things to do with their little ones, everyone won.
Helianthus 15y ago
>Women stand a far better chance of learning to program when they are in a non-intimidating environment where they don't have to put up with a bunch of condescending jerks (take your pick): staring at them, competing with them, putting them in "their place", patronizing them. Hidden in that is the subtle assumption that women need to be protected. Particularly in the clause "competing with them," I find protectionism evident. Now, I'm not saying these groups shouldn't exist, or that they're wrong, or that a group of mostly men can and often does create a hostile environment for women. But your phrasing makes me uncomfortable, internally, as if I feel you're not quite leery enough of how much you're using sexism to combat sexism. There is nothing wrong with that, it is very pragmatic and a good chunk of the 'ism' reasoning behind affirmative action (which I generally support). But "Reverse the roles, and this would be just as true" is essentially saying "If men were women and women were men, we'd still be playing with standard gender roles, so it's fair!" which doesn't quite compute.

Goladus 15y ago

Would the instructors for your event be male or female?

ned_batchelder 15y ago
Most of the instructors are female, though there are a few men. Why do you ask?
- Goladus 15y ago
  I was asking "Troll_Whisperer" about his hypothetical inverse event aimed at Men. I was not expecting a good answer because I was sure he had not thought through the idea in a meaningful way.

mitcheme 15y ago

Men are already the majority of programmers so this wouldn't be necessary, just reactionary (and you know it, too). I have no problem with workshops for men for skills which are traditionally dominated by women, since in many cases it makes for a more comfortable environment for men to start out in. I've seen men-only parenting classes and craft groups; there are probably others. Why is it so horrible to encourage people to try nontraditional hobbies and skills?