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During the pandemic we kept hearing that collectivist cultures and socialized medicine would have the upper-hand. Yet Canada's vaccination rate is abysmal (32%

During the pandemic we kept hearing that collectivist cultures and socialized medicine would have the upper-hand. Yet Canada's vaccination rate is abysmal (32% vs 2.55% are completely covered with the required two doses [0]) when compared to the United States. What's the explanation here? [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccina...

anonuser123456 6y ago
>What's the explanation here? Incentives matter?
CaveTech 6y ago
Canada does not have any production facilities and has been unable to give vaccinations as a result. Our daily vaccinations per capita are nearing or exceeding the US at this time and we are accelerating as we receive more doses. 2nd doses have been delayed to ensure maximum efficiency of the supply we have.
ThrustVectoring 6y ago
The US government threw its weight around to ensure that it would have manufacturing capability and doses. If Canada physically had more doses, they'd have more shots in arms.
- tick_tock_tick 6y ago
  That is a good point at-least for western powers the more socialist the country the less "weight" it possesses.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  That's smart. Pharma production is a strategic asset. Would be unthinkable to have the US aerospace industry outsourced to foreign countries for instance. Is there a different perception in Canada?
  - jleyank 6y ago
    Trust the market has been repeated ad infinitum for decades. Except when the sh*t hits the fan the market either collapses or is nationalized. We saw this with PPE and we see this with vaccines. People are either going to have to pay more to maintain in-country manufacturing or just wring their hands and whine. Those who can manufacture have done well. Some export and some do not. Countries have learned who their friends really are or that there are no friends. Vaccine production has greatly increased but it’s going to be very hard to get dosing outside the g20.
sueders101 6y ago
Canada doesn’t have the ability to manufacture the vaccines. The United States does. The United Kingdom also has manufacturing capabilities and has had a strong vaccine rollout.
- dnautics 6y ago
  it's not like there is one manufacturer. the vaccine manufacturers contract out to a bunch of small contract chemists to get it done. Surprising that there aren't any at all in canada.
  - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
    > Surprising that there aren't any at all in canada. Countries like the US and UK have banned export of the vaccine, but also of the needed materials.
version_five 6y ago
Not to mention, my perception (and maybe it's only that) is that socialized healthcare is being used as an extra excuse for putting restrictions on what we can do, because we are all dependent on the state and they can't take care of us adequately. I know there is more subtlety than that, but personally I only see that socialized healthcare can be compatible with free society when it is completely decoupled from telling people how to behave
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > is being used as an extra excuse for putting restrictions on what we can do How's the population dealing with these random arbitrary checkpoints and curfews? Are those popular measures?
  - version_five 6y ago
    Culturally we don't really stand up for ourselves, and my perception (as a tech worker) is that calling out any of these measures in my social group is roughly equivalent to saying I don't believe in vaccines or climate change or something, so I've not heard a lot of people voice strong contrarian views. Also, these policies are much worse for the working class that we don't seem to care about, which are either immigrants or people outside of Toronto or Montreal, so don't count for politicians. It's just really another conversation piece for the zoom crowd.
    - timbit42 6y ago
      Canadians feel many of the restrictions are justified in light of the pandemic. Once it ends, Canadians will stand up if the restrictions don't end.
whimsicalism 6y ago
If you are short on vaccines, first dose first is the obvious strategy, so you hsouldn't compare complete coverage. Canada has had 3x fewer deaths per capita, so I would still say they are a success case compared to us.
- busymom0 6y ago
  US death numbers are not an outlier once you consider 1. The US population is on average over 30lb overweight compared to the rest of the world with significant comorbidities (In the United States, 36.5 percent of adults are obese. Another 32.5 percent of American adults are overweight. In all, more than two-thirds of adults in the United States are overweight or obese), 2. has very old population similar to Italy (though this is similar to Canada too) 3. has tons of tourism during winter 4. Canada has a population density of 4 people per square kilometer and population of 1/10th of US. This density is even bigger factor for COVID and crazy dense cities. US has a population density 36 per Km2. US also has the third-highest population in the world. 5. New York was been found to be the origin of virus variant for majority of the US states - something Governor Cuomo played a big role in. Plus back in March, the American Health Care Association told Cuomo, Wolf, Murphy, Whitmer etc to stop ordering infected patients into nursing homes. The governors ignored the AHCA and removed their own family from nursing homes while forcing others: https://www.ahcancal.org/News/news_releases/Pages/Long-term-care-leaders-address-state-orders-on-hospital-admissions-to-nursing-homes.aspx https://www.ahcancal.org/News/news_releases/Pages/Long-term-... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1191811 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1191811 US numbers could have been better if it didn't have such major obesity problems.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > 1. The US population is on average over 30lb overweight Not far off from Canadian numbers, you can look it up. Canada is at pretty much exactly 2/3 overweight + obese. Certainly not 3x as high. > 2. has very old population similar to Italy (though this is similar to Canada too) As you noted, also similar to Canada. > 3. has tons of tourism during winter Is winter tourism worth an additional 400k deaths when you scale out the per capita difference? > 4. Canada has a population density of 4 people per square kilometer This is just a bad argument, for the obvious reason that dividing the Canadian population by the entire area of their landmass tell you nothing about the density of their cities or how many people live there. China has first-highest population in the world, way fewer people died there. SF is one of the densest cities in the US and it had a low covid death rate. > 5. New York was been found to be the origin of virus variant for majority of the US states - something Governor Cuomo played a big role in The NY variant doesn't spread more easily, unlike other variants. Granted, Cuomo is an idiot (I've been an early adopter on that line of thought, he basically got famous early in the pandemic for how much of a failure his state was but people didn't realize it), but I don't think you can pin the entire discrepancy on Cuomo.
totony 6y ago
>During the pandemic we kept hearing that collectivist cultures and socialized medicine would have the upper-hand. You would think that the contrary would be true. If your health system is overloaded, it being socialized cannot make it better at first glance. Access isn't the issue, availability is (and this is what is seen in Canada right now). Although I agree collectivist cultures probably have the upper-hand (e.g. China was able to enforce pretty stringent measures and pool resources to build hospitals).
cli 6y ago
A few months ago, the Canadian government chose to prioritize first doses first. I know the BC government changed their vaccination schedule after this announcement such that everyone should be able to get their first dose by June or July. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26360556 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26360556
fighterpilot 6y ago
At least everyone is equally unvaccinated.
ChrisClark 6y ago
The previous government scrapped and shutdown all domestic vaccine manufacturing. Hard to get it all up and running again on short notice. Also, we stopped giving out second doses to prioritize first doses. So that stat will definitely look horrible. But... we're still very low on first doses, only about 33%. :(
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Hasn't it been half a decade already?
golemiprague 6y ago
The US is the only developed country without universal healthcare so it is hard to assess whether this is the critical factor. Israel and the UK has a socialized system and both are doing well. Australia and NZ also have a socialised system and they both did well by closing borders effectively. It might be that right wing government did better as all those countries except NZ has right wing government and USA was too in the beginning half of the pandemic and they all acted fast whether it was with regard to porcurement of vaccines or securing the borders. I still remember how much Trump was criticised by the democrats and media when he wanted to close the borders for Chinese, but at least they didn't stop him for pushing the vaccines production and procurement right from the moment it was available. Altogether it is hard to say though, there are too many other factors and too small of a sample size.

anonuser123456 6y ago

>What's the explanation here? Incentives matter?

CaveTech 6y ago

Canada does not have any production facilities and has been unable to give vaccinations as a result. Our daily vaccinations per capita are nearing or exceeding the US at this time and we are accelerating as we receive more doses. 2nd doses have been delayed to ensure maximum efficiency of the supply we have.

ThrustVectoring 6y ago

The US government threw its weight around to ensure that it would have manufacturing capability and doses. If Canada physically had more doses, they'd have more shots in arms.

tick_tock_tick 6y ago
That is a good point at-least for western powers the more socialist the country the less "weight" it possesses.
908B64B197 6y ago
That's smart. Pharma production is a strategic asset. Would be unthinkable to have the US aerospace industry outsourced to foreign countries for instance. Is there a different perception in Canada?
- jleyank 6y ago
  Trust the market has been repeated ad infinitum for decades. Except when the sh*t hits the fan the market either collapses or is nationalized. We saw this with PPE and we see this with vaccines. People are either going to have to pay more to maintain in-country manufacturing or just wring their hands and whine. Those who can manufacture have done well. Some export and some do not. Countries have learned who their friends really are or that there are no friends. Vaccine production has greatly increased but it’s going to be very hard to get dosing outside the g20.

sueders101 6y ago

Canada doesn’t have the ability to manufacture the vaccines. The United States does. The United Kingdom also has manufacturing capabilities and has had a strong vaccine rollout.

dnautics 6y ago
it's not like there is one manufacturer. the vaccine manufacturers contract out to a bunch of small contract chemists to get it done. Surprising that there aren't any at all in canada.
- yazaddaruvala 6y ago
  > Surprising that there aren't any at all in canada. Countries like the US and UK have banned export of the vaccine, but also of the needed materials.

version_five 6y ago

Not to mention, my perception (and maybe it's only that) is that socialized healthcare is being used as an extra excuse for putting restrictions on what we can do, because we are all dependent on the state and they can't take care of us adequately. I know there is more subtlety than that, but personally I only see that socialized healthcare can be compatible with free society when it is completely decoupled from telling people how to behave

908B64B197 6y ago
> is being used as an extra excuse for putting restrictions on what we can do How's the population dealing with these random arbitrary checkpoints and curfews? Are those popular measures?
- version_five 6y ago
  Culturally we don't really stand up for ourselves, and my perception (as a tech worker) is that calling out any of these measures in my social group is roughly equivalent to saying I don't believe in vaccines or climate change or something, so I've not heard a lot of people voice strong contrarian views. Also, these policies are much worse for the working class that we don't seem to care about, which are either immigrants or people outside of Toronto or Montreal, so don't count for politicians. It's just really another conversation piece for the zoom crowd.
  - timbit42 6y ago
    Canadians feel many of the restrictions are justified in light of the pandemic. Once it ends, Canadians will stand up if the restrictions don't end.

whimsicalism 6y ago

If you are short on vaccines, first dose first is the obvious strategy, so you hsouldn't compare complete coverage. Canada has had 3x fewer deaths per capita, so I would still say they are a success case compared to us.

busymom0 6y ago
US death numbers are not an outlier once you consider 1. The US population is on average over 30lb overweight compared to the rest of the world with significant comorbidities (In the United States, 36.5 percent of adults are obese. Another 32.5 percent of American adults are overweight. In all, more than two-thirds of adults in the United States are overweight or obese), 2. has very old population similar to Italy (though this is similar to Canada too) 3. has tons of tourism during winter 4. Canada has a population density of 4 people per square kilometer and population of 1/10th of US. This density is even bigger factor for COVID and crazy dense cities. US has a population density 36 per Km2. US also has the third-highest population in the world. 5. New York was been found to be the origin of virus variant for majority of the US states - something Governor Cuomo played a big role in. Plus back in March, the American Health Care Association told Cuomo, Wolf, Murphy, Whitmer etc to stop ordering infected patients into nursing homes. The governors ignored the AHCA and removed their own family from nursing homes while forcing others: https://www.ahcancal.org/News/news_releases/Pages/Long-term-care-leaders-address-state-orders-on-hospital-admissions-to-nursing-homes.aspx https://www.ahcancal.org/News/news_releases/Pages/Long-term-... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1191811 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1191811 US numbers could have been better if it didn't have such major obesity problems.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > 1. The US population is on average over 30lb overweight Not far off from Canadian numbers, you can look it up. Canada is at pretty much exactly 2/3 overweight + obese. Certainly not 3x as high. > 2. has very old population similar to Italy (though this is similar to Canada too) As you noted, also similar to Canada. > 3. has tons of tourism during winter Is winter tourism worth an additional 400k deaths when you scale out the per capita difference? > 4. Canada has a population density of 4 people per square kilometer This is just a bad argument, for the obvious reason that dividing the Canadian population by the entire area of their landmass tell you nothing about the density of their cities or how many people live there. China has first-highest population in the world, way fewer people died there. SF is one of the densest cities in the US and it had a low covid death rate. > 5. New York was been found to be the origin of virus variant for majority of the US states - something Governor Cuomo played a big role in The NY variant doesn't spread more easily, unlike other variants. Granted, Cuomo is an idiot (I've been an early adopter on that line of thought, he basically got famous early in the pandemic for how much of a failure his state was but people didn't realize it), but I don't think you can pin the entire discrepancy on Cuomo.

totony 6y ago

>During the pandemic we kept hearing that collectivist cultures and socialized medicine would have the upper-hand. You would think that the contrary would be true. If your health system is overloaded, it being socialized cannot make it better at first glance. Access isn't the issue, availability is (and this is what is seen in Canada right now). Although I agree collectivist cultures probably have the upper-hand (e.g. China was able to enforce pretty stringent measures and pool resources to build hospitals).

cli 6y ago

A few months ago, the Canadian government chose to prioritize first doses first. I know the BC government changed their vaccination schedule after this announcement such that everyone should be able to get their first dose by June or July. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26360556 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26360556

fighterpilot 6y ago

At least everyone is equally unvaccinated.

ChrisClark 6y ago

The previous government scrapped and shutdown all domestic vaccine manufacturing. Hard to get it all up and running again on short notice. Also, we stopped giving out second doses to prioritize first doses. So that stat will definitely look horrible. But... we're still very low on first doses, only about 33%. :(

908B64B197 6y ago
Hasn't it been half a decade already?

golemiprague 6y ago

The US is the only developed country without universal healthcare so it is hard to assess whether this is the critical factor. Israel and the UK has a socialized system and both are doing well. Australia and NZ also have a socialised system and they both did well by closing borders effectively. It might be that right wing government did better as all those countries except NZ has right wing government and USA was too in the beginning half of the pandemic and they all acted fast whether it was with regard to porcurement of vaccines or securing the borders. I still remember how much Trump was criticised by the democrats and media when he wanted to close the borders for Chinese, but at least they didn't stop him for pushing the vaccines production and procurement right from the moment it was available. Altogether it is hard to say though, there are too many other factors and too small of a sample size.