13 ms·

The California Exception

226 points by MaysonL 5y ago

rbg246 5y ago
My partner had a subscription I do not remember her having any issues cancelling it. We are in Australia.
- distributedsean 5y ago
  you probably have consumer protection laws, in the US they suck
  - rbg246 5y ago
    Precisely - quite fascinating their multi-faceted approach
gmurphy 5y ago
I was so mad at their cancellation dark patterns I cancelled my otherwise-useful subscription. I live in California, but still didn't see an easy way to do it, so I swapped my billing method to PayPal and then cancelled it in the PayPal UI, which worked great. You then have to deal with weeks of constant spam from the NYT about the failed billing process, further cementing the my view that cancellation was the right thing.
- vkat 5y ago
  I cancelled via chat 2 weeks ago. Was just asked 1 question by the bot which then forwarded the transcript to a live agent who then went ahead and cancelled without further questions. Maybe they updated their policy recently?
  - martinald 5y ago
    Yes same, was pretty easy over chat. However I'd probably resubscribe if they made it easier to cancel. Sometimes I get news overload and want to cut down on publications for a bit. If I could subscribe for a few months, cancel, then resubscribe again with no hassles I'd do it (and do that for other things). Fwiw I think slack absolutely nails this and is a net positive for them in the long run. They automatically refund inactive users which means you don't need to "think" too much about adding people. I wish more companies would experiment with this kind of "honest" billing vs expending all their effort on layer upon layer of dark patterns.
    - distributedsean 5y ago
      I'm not standing up for dark patterns here (as a person who runs a subscription business I hate them because it makes it harder for people like me to run an honest business) but there is a big difference between offering a virtual service (i.e. Slack) and shipping somebody a physical product like a Newspaper.
      - ehershey 5y ago
        They do the same thing for digital-only subscriptions.
    - FredPret 5y ago
      In Musk’s biography it mentions how he argued it should be trivial to get your money out of x.com or else people won’t deposit in the first place. This is almost like that. The WSJ is bad too. But I’ve noticed that cancelling and restarting my Audible sub was totally painless.
- Sekhmet 5y ago
  I did the same thing. As I'm in Europe I couldn't call them nor reach them via "instant chat" as hours it was open didn't make sense. I liked the service and it wasn't that expensive, but after that whole cancellation UX I'm done with NYT forever.
- gnopgnip 5y ago
  Cancelling the billing in paypal isn't the same thing as cancelling the subscription, the same was as cancelling a check or charging back via credit card doesn't cancel the subscription. NYT could still pursue collecting this debt.
sundaeofshock 5y ago
I know it's super popular to complain about over-regulation in California; however, I think it's worth pointing out that most regulations are things like this. Generally, lawmakers in the state of California do things to try to make things better for most of it's citizens. Do they always get it right? Of course not! But when they do, its wonderful.
- sillyquiet 5y ago
  Yeah, I was going to make this point - the consumer and employee protection laws in California are things to be emulated. I think it gets lost in the AVALANCHE of ill-considered laws California makes that are pointed to as gov overreach, and rightfully so in my somewhat libertarian opinion - but it IS possible to have the one without the other, and one could argue the mountain of bad or hasty laws is doing nobody, including proponents of the rightful place of government in protecting citizens like this, any favors. edit: I should clarify I don't consider the consumer protection law in question is one of those bad laws of course, I just worry the scattershot lawmaking that California sometimes indulges in makes it harder to point to the successes of that model. I would appreciate the silent downvoters to explain, but I guess HN has gotten too far away from its roots and too close to the Reddit model of 'downvote things I disagree with'
  - ev1 5y ago
    I didn't up or downvote, but to me, your comment sounds like generic yelling about how almost everything (other than consumer and employee protection) is overreach and a shitty law while citing no examples at all, then complaining about downvotes.
    - sillyquiet 5y ago
      Well, yeah that's on me, because that's not my intent nor my point. The California lege's default position is, when in doubt, pass a law - some are good, well crafted, and effective. Many are not. This is the scattershot I mentioned. There, however is a lot of legislative 'noise' to the signal of the effective laws. That's all my point was.
yobert 5y ago
My favorite instance of this phenomenon is when I get a product with a label on it that says "This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- the_local_host 5y ago
  That warning is posted at the entrance to essentially every building in California.
  - coryrc 5y ago
    In Silicon Valley, that's often correct...
  - Talanes 5y ago
    I'm curious about who holds the rights to that image. I'm a little surprised I've never seen a version of it adapted as a t-shirt, it's so ubiquitous here.
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  I'm mostly annoyed by the anthropomorphization of the state.
- pjc50 5y ago
  Also a favourite of mine. You know there's enough of a problem to notify me, but not enough of a problem to actually .. do anything about it?
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Well cigarettes are available most places...
sanxiyn 5y ago
> Local consumers will be able to cancel the YouTube Premium service immediately and will be eligible for refunds based on their remaining subscription period, the Korea Communications Commission said after receiving Google's voluntary corrective measures. http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200625000947 http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200625000947 South Korea's Communications Service Act Article 50 forbids communications service providers, such as YouTube, from refusing to refund remaining subscription, so Google "voluntarily" corrected this. Strangely, as far as I know this is not available outside South Korea. Why Google? You voluntarily corrected this.
renewiltord 5y ago
The Wall Street Journal allows me (a CA resident) to cancel online in seconds. It was very easy.
- flakiness 5y ago
  Would love to know how this works. Is it chat or a from? I've wanted to give WSJ a try, but have been scared to the cancellation nightmare I have to deal with.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    I had to call them and deal with a guy almost yelling at me about what a good deal I had going. Took 20 minutes
    - flakiness 5y ago
      Haha, that aligns my original expectation and it sounds like you are not in CA ;-)
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    I cancelled a while ago and you just log in and cancel it from there. This place has a link for CA residents https://customercenter.wsj.com/help/article?topic=Policies&title=Cancellation%20%26%20Refund%20Policy https://customercenter.wsj.com/help/article?topic=Policies&t... But this is embarrassing. I recently resubscribed, but on my edu account and now I can't find the cancel button anymore. I can only guess that it's because I've paid for some longer duration in advance, but that's no excuse not to have no cancel button.
maerF0x0 5y ago
> they use dark patterns because they work. Customers need to get far more ornery. So many of us are just so complacent... Demand better for your dollars or refuse to give it to companies that either 1) Do not deliver or 2) have a reputation for using dark patterns. "Oh you give discounts to android users because their phones are cheaper than iPhones? Ok you just lost all my business permanently."
- jakemal 5y ago
  I was going to temporarily cancel my NYT subscription because I wasn't using it enough at the time. Once I found out I had to talk to a person in order to cancel, I told them that I would never resubscribe because of it. It's infuriating that they try to use inconvenience to hold your dollars hostage. Why not just focus on making a great product?
  - ncallaway 5y ago
    I could've written this exact count word for word. Will never go back to subscribing to the NYT because of that exact experience.
  - maerF0x0 5y ago
    makes me wonder what would happen if you called your credit card company and did a stop payment? Basically say it's a subscription and they're not letting you cancel.
    - chihuahua 5y ago
      I assume the NYT could contact a collection agency and say "this guy didn't cancel his subscription, but just stoppped paying. So after 6 months of this, he owes us $xyz." And then his credit rating takes a hit.
      - maerF0x0 5y ago
        And then you mention you did call and they were uncooperative?
cblconfederate 5y ago
if even the US needs regulation for rudimentary customer choice instead of competition then there s a problem
nr2x 5y ago
Similar argument made in this Times op-Ed in regards to tracking on the Times website: “ Jean-Christophe Demarta, an advertising executive at The Times, recently told Digiday that even with G.D.P.R.-related changes, The Times’s “digital advertising business continues to grow nicely.” If people everywhere should have the same fundamental rights to privacy as Europeans, and if providing privacy is not unduly harming revenue, why shouldn’t The Times provide enhanced privacy to all its readers? Readers everywhere could then be more confident that their interests in politics, health and other sensitive topics would not be subject to government surveillance or sold to the highest bidder. In the same way The Times leads in high-quality news coverage, it could also lead in respecting reader privacy. ” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/opinion/data-privacy-tracking.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/opinion/data-privacy-trac...
jedberg 5y ago
California law requires that you be allowed to cancel a subscription in the same manner in which you created it. So if they have an always available online form to sign up, they are supposed to have an always available form to cancel. Technically the NYT is still in violation of the law, since I can sign up with out chatting with someone. But at least it's better than the experience for everyone else!
- JPKab 5y ago
  Why isn't California enforcing this law? Is there any explanation?
  - vmception 5y ago
    Because people are still living in the streets in squalor and the state is already broke entertaining that and other programs. I’m not being facetious.
    - Inhibit 5y ago
      That sounds like why they should enforce it! The mechanism usually involves a transfer of wealth to the offendee.
  - gnopgnip 5y ago
    The law is mostly enforced against outright scams, not against legitimate companies that do pickup the phone or let you cancel.
- panopticon 5y ago
  I think your understanding of the law is more strict than it actually is. The text of 17602(c) reads: > In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b), a consumer who accepts an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online shall be allowed to terminate the automatic renewal or continuous service exclusively online, which may include a termination email formatted and provided by the business that a consumer can send to the business without additional information. Since you can cancel your NYTimes subscription via chat, that seems to satisfy the "exclusively online" requirement.
foxfired 5y ago
I used to worked in customer service automation and it was extremely disappointing. All studies show that providing good and fast customer service improves customer retention (even when they want to cancel their subscription). Our clients often post these studies on linkedin, yet when it comes to servicing the customer they choose deception. For every company we worked with we had to create 2 experiences. One for California where you click one button and boom! You cancelled your subscription. For the rest, there are forms after forms, and then we give you a special email and a specific format to follow. Sometimes you have to talk to an agent to do what we do with a single API call in California. Not to name names, but something about shaving, men, and landscape. They made the cancelling process so complicated that we decided not to do it. It involved more than 5 emails, some with the only words in the body being "Are you really sure?" They ended up cancelling our contract. I was never happier.
- raphlinus 5y ago
  I have no idea who you're talking about, but curiously I ran across this random example of a company that seems to have a particularly onerous process for cancelling a subscription: https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/gcz2dg/manscaped_saves_your_card_information_after_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/gcz2dg/mansc...
  - foxfired 5y ago
    yet you found them :D
ajdude 5y ago
At the bottom of walmart.com, there's a link for everyone to see that says "Do Not Sell My Personal Information" [0]. It takes you a page where it allows you to opt-out of having your personal information sold by Walmart, but only if you live in California, which I do not. [0] https://cpa-ui.walmart.com/affirmation https://cpa-ui.walmart.com/affirmation
chmod775 5y ago
I have a snailmail letter template for this. When I can't find a way to cancel at first glance, they get a letter. Let them figure it out. Until not very long ago that's how it used to be done - and it'll get the law on your side pretty much wherever they or you live.
- everybodyknows 5y ago
  Do you somehow record evidence that the letter reached the recipient, or at least the post office? Where I live, theft of outgoing mail is common.
  - chmod775 5y ago
    > Where I live, theft of outgoing mail is common. What... how? Are people breaking into PO boxes? When I want to make sure nobody pretends a letter got "lost" I send certified mail[1]. The only time I ever did that so far was when I quit a job though. [1] Or maybe registered mail. I'm honestly unsure how this translates. Seems to vary by country. In Germany it's called "Einschreiben".
    - throwawayfrauds 5y ago
      People fish mail out of USPS collection boxes (I’ve witnessed it myself). It’s gotten so bad in my neighborhood that at close of business they lock the collection boxes outside of the USPS buildings in my area.
      - chmod775 5y ago
        Ah. That's not really physically possible with those we have here - short of wrecking the thing or picking the lock. I don't see why anyone would though. A bunch of stolen outgoing mail is going to contain nothing but boredom. Certainly nothing you could turn into easy cash. Though I could picture vandals throwing firecrackers or something into them. In fact I remember something about a PO box burning down being on the local news some time ago. It certainly happens.
vzaliva 5y ago
I was recently cancellng my service at https://www.greenlightcard.com/ https://www.greenlightcard.com/ and it took me 30 min of my life. I was so annoyed about it. But this is an example how such laws could be useless unless they are enforced. I am in California and created my subscription online, yet Greenlight gets away with forcing me to call them to cancel. What do I do? Sue them? I do not have time or money for that.
lamontcg 5y ago
Can we just finally make a law to ban companies acting like assholes? The steady drip drip drip every single day of these companies affecting our lives is mentally toxic.
bigmattystyles 5y ago
I'm not proud of this but the one lifehack I always use when I'm required to call in to cancel even though a service has a live (human) chat on their site - I tell them I'm deaf. I'm not and I feel weird using this tactic, as though I'm appropriating deafness, but damn does it work. It's never once failed me.
- this_was_posted 5y ago
  I think it's something you actually should be proud of, this way you increase the frequency in which companies encounter a "deaf" person which forces them to adapt quicker to people with such disabilities.

226 points by MaysonL 5y ago

rbg246 5y ago

My partner had a subscription I do not remember her having any issues cancelling it. We are in Australia.

distributedsean 5y ago
you probably have consumer protection laws, in the US they suck
- rbg246 5y ago
  Precisely - quite fascinating their multi-faceted approach

gmurphy 5y ago

I was so mad at their cancellation dark patterns I cancelled my otherwise-useful subscription. I live in California, but still didn't see an easy way to do it, so I swapped my billing method to PayPal and then cancelled it in the PayPal UI, which worked great. You then have to deal with weeks of constant spam from the NYT about the failed billing process, further cementing the my view that cancellation was the right thing.

vkat 5y ago
I cancelled via chat 2 weeks ago. Was just asked 1 question by the bot which then forwarded the transcript to a live agent who then went ahead and cancelled without further questions. Maybe they updated their policy recently?
- martinald 5y ago
  Yes same, was pretty easy over chat. However I'd probably resubscribe if they made it easier to cancel. Sometimes I get news overload and want to cut down on publications for a bit. If I could subscribe for a few months, cancel, then resubscribe again with no hassles I'd do it (and do that for other things). Fwiw I think slack absolutely nails this and is a net positive for them in the long run. They automatically refund inactive users which means you don't need to "think" too much about adding people. I wish more companies would experiment with this kind of "honest" billing vs expending all their effort on layer upon layer of dark patterns.
  - distributedsean 5y ago
    I'm not standing up for dark patterns here (as a person who runs a subscription business I hate them because it makes it harder for people like me to run an honest business) but there is a big difference between offering a virtual service (i.e. Slack) and shipping somebody a physical product like a Newspaper.
    - ehershey 5y ago
      They do the same thing for digital-only subscriptions.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    In Musk’s biography it mentions how he argued it should be trivial to get your money out of x.com or else people won’t deposit in the first place. This is almost like that. The WSJ is bad too. But I’ve noticed that cancelling and restarting my Audible sub was totally painless.
Sekhmet 5y ago
I did the same thing. As I'm in Europe I couldn't call them nor reach them via "instant chat" as hours it was open didn't make sense. I liked the service and it wasn't that expensive, but after that whole cancellation UX I'm done with NYT forever.
gnopgnip 5y ago
Cancelling the billing in paypal isn't the same thing as cancelling the subscription, the same was as cancelling a check or charging back via credit card doesn't cancel the subscription. NYT could still pursue collecting this debt.

sundaeofshock 5y ago

I know it's super popular to complain about over-regulation in California; however, I think it's worth pointing out that most regulations are things like this. Generally, lawmakers in the state of California do things to try to make things better for most of it's citizens. Do they always get it right? Of course not! But when they do, its wonderful.

sillyquiet 5y ago
Yeah, I was going to make this point - the consumer and employee protection laws in California are things to be emulated. I think it gets lost in the AVALANCHE of ill-considered laws California makes that are pointed to as gov overreach, and rightfully so in my somewhat libertarian opinion - but it IS possible to have the one without the other, and one could argue the mountain of bad or hasty laws is doing nobody, including proponents of the rightful place of government in protecting citizens like this, any favors. edit: I should clarify I don't consider the consumer protection law in question is one of those bad laws of course, I just worry the scattershot lawmaking that California sometimes indulges in makes it harder to point to the successes of that model. I would appreciate the silent downvoters to explain, but I guess HN has gotten too far away from its roots and too close to the Reddit model of 'downvote things I disagree with'
- ev1 5y ago
  I didn't up or downvote, but to me, your comment sounds like generic yelling about how almost everything (other than consumer and employee protection) is overreach and a shitty law while citing no examples at all, then complaining about downvotes.
  - sillyquiet 5y ago
    Well, yeah that's on me, because that's not my intent nor my point. The California lege's default position is, when in doubt, pass a law - some are good, well crafted, and effective. Many are not. This is the scattershot I mentioned. There, however is a lot of legislative 'noise' to the signal of the effective laws. That's all my point was.

yobert 5y ago

My favorite instance of this phenomenon is when I get a product with a label on it that says "This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer."

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
the_local_host 5y ago
That warning is posted at the entrance to essentially every building in California.
- coryrc 5y ago
  In Silicon Valley, that's often correct...
- Talanes 5y ago
  I'm curious about who holds the rights to that image. I'm a little surprised I've never seen a version of it adapted as a t-shirt, it's so ubiquitous here.
BurningFrog 5y ago
I'm mostly annoyed by the anthropomorphization of the state.
pjc50 5y ago
Also a favourite of mine. You know there's enough of a problem to notify me, but not enough of a problem to actually .. do anything about it?
- aidenn0 5y ago
  Well cigarettes are available most places...

sanxiyn 5y ago

> Local consumers will be able to cancel the YouTube Premium service immediately and will be eligible for refunds based on their remaining subscription period, the Korea Communications Commission said after receiving Google's voluntary corrective measures. http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200625000947 http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200625000947 South Korea's Communications Service Act Article 50 forbids communications service providers, such as YouTube, from refusing to refund remaining subscription, so Google "voluntarily" corrected this. Strangely, as far as I know this is not available outside South Korea. Why Google? You voluntarily corrected this.

renewiltord 5y ago

The Wall Street Journal allows me (a CA resident) to cancel online in seconds. It was very easy.

flakiness 5y ago
Would love to know how this works. Is it chat or a from? I've wanted to give WSJ a try, but have been scared to the cancellation nightmare I have to deal with.
- FredPret 5y ago
  I had to call them and deal with a guy almost yelling at me about what a good deal I had going. Took 20 minutes
  - flakiness 5y ago
    Haha, that aligns my original expectation and it sounds like you are not in CA ;-)
- renewiltord 5y ago
  I cancelled a while ago and you just log in and cancel it from there. This place has a link for CA residents https://customercenter.wsj.com/help/article?topic=Policies&title=Cancellation%20%26%20Refund%20Policy https://customercenter.wsj.com/help/article?topic=Policies&t... But this is embarrassing. I recently resubscribed, but on my edu account and now I can't find the cancel button anymore. I can only guess that it's because I've paid for some longer duration in advance, but that's no excuse not to have no cancel button.

maerF0x0 5y ago

> they use dark patterns because they work. Customers need to get far more ornery. So many of us are just so complacent... Demand better for your dollars or refuse to give it to companies that either 1) Do not deliver or 2) have a reputation for using dark patterns. "Oh you give discounts to android users because their phones are cheaper than iPhones? Ok you just lost all my business permanently."

jakemal 5y ago
I was going to temporarily cancel my NYT subscription because I wasn't using it enough at the time. Once I found out I had to talk to a person in order to cancel, I told them that I would never resubscribe because of it. It's infuriating that they try to use inconvenience to hold your dollars hostage. Why not just focus on making a great product?
- ncallaway 5y ago
  I could've written this exact count word for word. Will never go back to subscribing to the NYT because of that exact experience.
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  makes me wonder what would happen if you called your credit card company and did a stop payment? Basically say it's a subscription and they're not letting you cancel.
  - chihuahua 5y ago
    I assume the NYT could contact a collection agency and say "this guy didn't cancel his subscription, but just stoppped paying. So after 6 months of this, he owes us $xyz." And then his credit rating takes a hit.
    - maerF0x0 5y ago
      And then you mention you did call and they were uncooperative?

cblconfederate 5y ago

if even the US needs regulation for rudimentary customer choice instead of competition then there s a problem

nr2x 5y ago

Similar argument made in this Times op-Ed in regards to tracking on the Times website: “ Jean-Christophe Demarta, an advertising executive at The Times, recently told Digiday that even with G.D.P.R.-related changes, The Times’s “digital advertising business continues to grow nicely.” If people everywhere should have the same fundamental rights to privacy as Europeans, and if providing privacy is not unduly harming revenue, why shouldn’t The Times provide enhanced privacy to all its readers? Readers everywhere could then be more confident that their interests in politics, health and other sensitive topics would not be subject to government surveillance or sold to the highest bidder. In the same way The Times leads in high-quality news coverage, it could also lead in respecting reader privacy. ” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/opinion/data-privacy-tracking.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/opinion/data-privacy-trac...

jedberg 5y ago

California law requires that you be allowed to cancel a subscription in the same manner in which you created it. So if they have an always available online form to sign up, they are supposed to have an always available form to cancel. Technically the NYT is still in violation of the law, since I can sign up with out chatting with someone. But at least it's better than the experience for everyone else!

JPKab 5y ago
Why isn't California enforcing this law? Is there any explanation?
- vmception 5y ago
  Because people are still living in the streets in squalor and the state is already broke entertaining that and other programs. I’m not being facetious.
  - Inhibit 5y ago
    That sounds like why they should enforce it! The mechanism usually involves a transfer of wealth to the offendee.
- gnopgnip 5y ago
  The law is mostly enforced against outright scams, not against legitimate companies that do pickup the phone or let you cancel.
panopticon 5y ago
I think your understanding of the law is more strict than it actually is. The text of 17602(c) reads: > In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b), a consumer who accepts an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online shall be allowed to terminate the automatic renewal or continuous service exclusively online, which may include a termination email formatted and provided by the business that a consumer can send to the business without additional information. Since you can cancel your NYTimes subscription via chat, that seems to satisfy the "exclusively online" requirement.

foxfired 5y ago

I used to worked in customer service automation and it was extremely disappointing. All studies show that providing good and fast customer service improves customer retention (even when they want to cancel their subscription). Our clients often post these studies on linkedin, yet when it comes to servicing the customer they choose deception. For every company we worked with we had to create 2 experiences. One for California where you click one button and boom! You cancelled your subscription. For the rest, there are forms after forms, and then we give you a special email and a specific format to follow. Sometimes you have to talk to an agent to do what we do with a single API call in California. Not to name names, but something about shaving, men, and landscape. They made the cancelling process so complicated that we decided not to do it. It involved more than 5 emails, some with the only words in the body being "Are you really sure?" They ended up cancelling our contract. I was never happier.

raphlinus 5y ago
I have no idea who you're talking about, but curiously I ran across this random example of a company that seems to have a particularly onerous process for cancelling a subscription: https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/gcz2dg/manscaped_saves_your_card_information_after_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/gcz2dg/mansc...
- foxfired 5y ago
  yet you found them :D

ajdude 5y ago

At the bottom of walmart.com, there's a link for everyone to see that says "Do Not Sell My Personal Information" [0]. It takes you a page where it allows you to opt-out of having your personal information sold by Walmart, but only if you live in California, which I do not. [0] https://cpa-ui.walmart.com/affirmation https://cpa-ui.walmart.com/affirmation

chmod775 5y ago

I have a snailmail letter template for this. When I can't find a way to cancel at first glance, they get a letter. Let them figure it out. Until not very long ago that's how it used to be done - and it'll get the law on your side pretty much wherever they or you live.

everybodyknows 5y ago
Do you somehow record evidence that the letter reached the recipient, or at least the post office? Where I live, theft of outgoing mail is common.
- chmod775 5y ago
  > Where I live, theft of outgoing mail is common. What... how? Are people breaking into PO boxes? When I want to make sure nobody pretends a letter got "lost" I send certified mail[1]. The only time I ever did that so far was when I quit a job though. [1] Or maybe registered mail. I'm honestly unsure how this translates. Seems to vary by country. In Germany it's called "Einschreiben".
  - throwawayfrauds 5y ago
    People fish mail out of USPS collection boxes (I’ve witnessed it myself). It’s gotten so bad in my neighborhood that at close of business they lock the collection boxes outside of the USPS buildings in my area.
    - chmod775 5y ago
      Ah. That's not really physically possible with those we have here - short of wrecking the thing or picking the lock. I don't see why anyone would though. A bunch of stolen outgoing mail is going to contain nothing but boredom. Certainly nothing you could turn into easy cash. Though I could picture vandals throwing firecrackers or something into them. In fact I remember something about a PO box burning down being on the local news some time ago. It certainly happens.

vzaliva 5y ago

I was recently cancellng my service at https://www.greenlightcard.com/ https://www.greenlightcard.com/ and it took me 30 min of my life. I was so annoyed about it. But this is an example how such laws could be useless unless they are enforced. I am in California and created my subscription online, yet Greenlight gets away with forcing me to call them to cancel. What do I do? Sue them? I do not have time or money for that.

lamontcg 5y ago

Can we just finally make a law to ban companies acting like assholes? The steady drip drip drip every single day of these companies affecting our lives is mentally toxic.

bigmattystyles 5y ago

I'm not proud of this but the one lifehack I always use when I'm required to call in to cancel even though a service has a live (human) chat on their site - I tell them I'm deaf. I'm not and I feel weird using this tactic, as though I'm appropriating deafness, but damn does it work. It's never once failed me.

this_was_posted 5y ago
I think it's something you actually should be proud of, this way you increase the frequency in which companies encounter a "deaf" person which forces them to adapt quicker to people with such disabilities.