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I've tried a bunch of MMOs since WoW... and despite newer engines and some neat features, they often end up just being... mostly WoW once the sheen wears off. I

I've tried a bunch of MMOs since WoW... and despite newer engines and some neat features, they often end up just being... mostly WoW once the sheen wears off. I occasionally revisit WoW because if you're going to play a WoW clone, you might as well just play WoW.

reedf1 6y ago
You should try playing some older MMOs: EVE, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Runescape. All stuff fundamentally untouched by the WoW design - and they are much better for it IMO. When I've played these games, even 20 years on, I am completely stunned. Makes me realize how psychologically kneecapped we are by WoW.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  I've spent a lot of time involved in the EVE space, I was on the DUST 514 version of the CSM, and I've participated in a couple of wars, even though I am very bad at Internet spaceships. Sometimes I wish EVE was just a tiny bit more like WoW... I wish the environment felt more varied than it does today. It really solely differentiates the game over time and area by player politics. Which is definitely fun, but almost in spite of the game, rather than because of it. ;) (Other games I spent time on, which yes, are newer than WoW: I really enjoyed the moment to moment feel of playing WildStar and Black Desert Online (largely because they replaced casting/cooldowns/calculated damage values with movement and combos), but of course, RIP the first one, and the second one is macrotransactioned to heck, my wallet couldn't take it. SWTOR's early storyline content is insanely well-done, but unfortunately, once you graduate out of it, it literally is exactly the same game as WoW.)
- paulmd 6y ago
  eve online's formula is... controversial. the significant IRL time grind (doesn't necessarily need to be actively played, your skills train even when offline like an idle simulator...) was always a controversial game design point since it meant newer players were permanently less skilled than older players, they could never catch up... but CCP made it so you could just pay to get higher skill points, which isn't great either. dust failed and it seems like CCP pivoted towards trying to monetize EVE Online harder. And it was already a fairly heavily monetized game (real-money trading was sanctioned even 15 years ago, the game basically required multiple accounts for high-level play, etc)
  - vsareto 6y ago
    Doing the FPS + MMO integration was a risky step, but they get points for trying because that was pretty creative back in its time. Like walking-in-stations, (now in Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous) they seem to be pioneers back in the day but didn't get much credit for it because the execution was so important. I'm fine with EVE having pay-for-skill points now because you were always able to buy accounts and that was actually scam-free. You'd need to buy a lot of PLEX back then to pay for one with real money though.
    - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
      I feel like CCP's vision is always ten times that of its capability. Walking in Stations would've been achievable for a larger, more funded studio. But CCP has never been able to put out something on that scope. (EVE itself is simple, in comparison to WiS, from a game development standpoint, and that took over a decade to get where it is.)
- brobdingnagians 6y ago
  I logged into Ultima Online recently and played a bit. Still fun, though the community is a lot smaller now. It is a shame that Origin took so long to try to fix the nonconsensual PvP and other issues (then split the worlds instead of just doing consensual flags), which resulted in lots of people leaving. They really did a very impressive thing with UO, and the original graphics still beat the cartoonish 3D stuff they added later. Again, goes to show that a solid foundation can endure for a long time. Lots of good memories, friends, and immersive play.
- emptysongglass 6y ago
  No love for EverQuest? Any MMO I've played since hasn't held a candle to the world design and enduring sense of mystery and wonder EverQuest was able to spark in my fragile little boyhood heart. I went back to play in a "static" group on the old school Project 1994 servers a couple years ago. Buncha strangers agreeing to meet online a couple times a week to play, drink some fancy beers and shoot the shit. No wonder lost. That thing is still a place of glory. WoW was the beginning of the end for the genre, in my opinion. Everything about it was smoothed over in all the wrong places. The art design and worldbuilding were just not good, especially when you consider the lore was a hobbled together mess of inheritance. The Colosseum legionnaires of the Iksar in their jungle and swamped wilds or the truly monstrous trolls selling dwarf bits that could have been pulled straight from some Nordic fairytales: that's some love of the grim imagination.
  - jointpdf 6y ago
    > the old school Project 1994 servers You mean Project 1999: https://www.project1999.com/ https://www.project1999.com/ (LFG, by the way)
    - emptysongglass 6y ago
      Oh jeez, that's what I get for not proofreading! Thanks for the correction. What side of the world are you on?
bluescrn 6y ago
If you've played a lot of WoW, you also spot glaring flaws in other games very quickly. Usually the 'feel' of combat/animation/movement just isn't up to Blizzard standards, and UIs are often very inflexible compared to WoW's moddable interface (without that, nobody would play healers for long!). Sometimes the travel timesinks are just unbearable (SWTOR), or the global cooldown feels glacial (FFXIV) And WoW keeps getting more and more polished. Just a shame that it all feels as if it's being run like an F2P mobile project now, probably driven by analytics/monetisation people rather than passionate MMO players.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  I would say WoW is getting less and less polished, at least for existing, active players (the new player experience has just received a massive boost). The WoW community has become accustomed to systems getting launched in a poor state, expecting future patches to fix glaring flaws in core gameplay, with the developers all but admitting this in interviews (if you're really into the details, Torghast would be the latest example of this pattern).
- robotmay 6y ago
  The FFXIV global cooldown is a bit weird in that it feels super slow until about lv50, where suddenly it doesn't feel slow enough. It's not the same for every class but using non-GCD abilities in between the cooldown becomes the primary rotation and it's _super_ challenging. I've been playing a lot of the Samurai class lately and the rotation is way more fun than I originally expected.
robotmay 6y ago
FFXIV is the one that finally hooked me. It improves on WoW in a lot of areas. The learning curve is a bit steep and the hell that is mogstation are points against it, but I've been very much enjoying it.
- amputect 6y ago
  Mogstation is truly incredible, it's like the digial equivalent of those "this is not a place of honor" signs, it feels designed to actively repel use. That said, FF14 is a ton of fun! And IIRC these days you can play the free trial up through the end of the first expansion, which is a LOT of gameplay.

reedf1 6y ago

You should try playing some older MMOs: EVE, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Runescape. All stuff fundamentally untouched by the WoW design - and they are much better for it IMO. When I've played these games, even 20 years on, I am completely stunned. Makes me realize how psychologically kneecapped we are by WoW.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
I've spent a lot of time involved in the EVE space, I was on the DUST 514 version of the CSM, and I've participated in a couple of wars, even though I am very bad at Internet spaceships. Sometimes I wish EVE was just a tiny bit more like WoW... I wish the environment felt more varied than it does today. It really solely differentiates the game over time and area by player politics. Which is definitely fun, but almost in spite of the game, rather than because of it. ;) (Other games I spent time on, which yes, are newer than WoW: I really enjoyed the moment to moment feel of playing WildStar and Black Desert Online (largely because they replaced casting/cooldowns/calculated damage values with movement and combos), but of course, RIP the first one, and the second one is macrotransactioned to heck, my wallet couldn't take it. SWTOR's early storyline content is insanely well-done, but unfortunately, once you graduate out of it, it literally is exactly the same game as WoW.)
paulmd 6y ago
eve online's formula is... controversial. the significant IRL time grind (doesn't necessarily need to be actively played, your skills train even when offline like an idle simulator...) was always a controversial game design point since it meant newer players were permanently less skilled than older players, they could never catch up... but CCP made it so you could just pay to get higher skill points, which isn't great either. dust failed and it seems like CCP pivoted towards trying to monetize EVE Online harder. And it was already a fairly heavily monetized game (real-money trading was sanctioned even 15 years ago, the game basically required multiple accounts for high-level play, etc)
- vsareto 6y ago
  Doing the FPS + MMO integration was a risky step, but they get points for trying because that was pretty creative back in its time. Like walking-in-stations, (now in Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous) they seem to be pioneers back in the day but didn't get much credit for it because the execution was so important. I'm fine with EVE having pay-for-skill points now because you were always able to buy accounts and that was actually scam-free. You'd need to buy a lot of PLEX back then to pay for one with real money though.
  - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
    I feel like CCP's vision is always ten times that of its capability. Walking in Stations would've been achievable for a larger, more funded studio. But CCP has never been able to put out something on that scope. (EVE itself is simple, in comparison to WiS, from a game development standpoint, and that took over a decade to get where it is.)
brobdingnagians 6y ago
I logged into Ultima Online recently and played a bit. Still fun, though the community is a lot smaller now. It is a shame that Origin took so long to try to fix the nonconsensual PvP and other issues (then split the worlds instead of just doing consensual flags), which resulted in lots of people leaving. They really did a very impressive thing with UO, and the original graphics still beat the cartoonish 3D stuff they added later. Again, goes to show that a solid foundation can endure for a long time. Lots of good memories, friends, and immersive play.
emptysongglass 6y ago
No love for EverQuest? Any MMO I've played since hasn't held a candle to the world design and enduring sense of mystery and wonder EverQuest was able to spark in my fragile little boyhood heart. I went back to play in a "static" group on the old school Project 1994 servers a couple years ago. Buncha strangers agreeing to meet online a couple times a week to play, drink some fancy beers and shoot the shit. No wonder lost. That thing is still a place of glory. WoW was the beginning of the end for the genre, in my opinion. Everything about it was smoothed over in all the wrong places. The art design and worldbuilding were just not good, especially when you consider the lore was a hobbled together mess of inheritance. The Colosseum legionnaires of the Iksar in their jungle and swamped wilds or the truly monstrous trolls selling dwarf bits that could have been pulled straight from some Nordic fairytales: that's some love of the grim imagination.
- jointpdf 6y ago
  > the old school Project 1994 servers You mean Project 1999: https://www.project1999.com/ https://www.project1999.com/ (LFG, by the way)
  - emptysongglass 6y ago
    Oh jeez, that's what I get for not proofreading! Thanks for the correction. What side of the world are you on?

bluescrn 6y ago

If you've played a lot of WoW, you also spot glaring flaws in other games very quickly. Usually the 'feel' of combat/animation/movement just isn't up to Blizzard standards, and UIs are often very inflexible compared to WoW's moddable interface (without that, nobody would play healers for long!). Sometimes the travel timesinks are just unbearable (SWTOR), or the global cooldown feels glacial (FFXIV) And WoW keeps getting more and more polished. Just a shame that it all feels as if it's being run like an F2P mobile project now, probably driven by analytics/monetisation people rather than passionate MMO players.

tsimionescu 6y ago
I would say WoW is getting less and less polished, at least for existing, active players (the new player experience has just received a massive boost). The WoW community has become accustomed to systems getting launched in a poor state, expecting future patches to fix glaring flaws in core gameplay, with the developers all but admitting this in interviews (if you're really into the details, Torghast would be the latest example of this pattern).
robotmay 6y ago
The FFXIV global cooldown is a bit weird in that it feels super slow until about lv50, where suddenly it doesn't feel slow enough. It's not the same for every class but using non-GCD abilities in between the cooldown becomes the primary rotation and it's _super_ challenging. I've been playing a lot of the Samurai class lately and the rotation is way more fun than I originally expected.

robotmay 6y ago

FFXIV is the one that finally hooked me. It improves on WoW in a lot of areas. The learning curve is a bit steep and the hell that is mogstation are points against it, but I've been very much enjoying it.

amputect 6y ago
Mogstation is truly incredible, it's like the digial equivalent of those "this is not a place of honor" signs, it feels designed to actively repel use. That said, FF14 is a ton of fun! And IIRC these days you can play the free trial up through the end of the first expansion, which is a LOT of gameplay.