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Honestly, not surprising. Motorcycles are a time-limited recreational activity in many countries around the world, as 2 wheels become extremely dangerous on pub

Honestly, not surprising. Motorcycles are a time-limited recreational activity in many countries around the world, as 2 wheels become extremely dangerous on public roads when ice and snow are present. It seems like a decent idea on it's face to save money when you don't need it, but I would question why it needs any online capabilities at all. All of the processing needs to be done on the device, as we're talking about fractions of a second to decide if inflation is required in the event of a crash. Not enough time to ask an API if your subscription is valid. KLIM made a mistake here and should have priced the device in such a way to support it for the life of the product. If that means you're buying into a 5 year life after purchase, so be it. Instead, they're purposefully selling a product that could be deadly under the guise of, "but you save money!". I expect the airbags in my car to work all the time. If I buy a safety feature, that safety feature should work 100% unless I explicitly disable it. What's amazing is the world of motorcycles already has this concept in production. Most bikes with ABS have the option to disable it for offroad use. After disabling it, I then can ride around and do all the crazy stuff I want and turn it back on when I'm ready. Heck, some manufacturers even re-enable it automatically after the bike is shut off and started again. Bad move by KLIM imo.

dharmab 6y ago
> Not enough time to ask an API if your subscription is valid. Common misconception. The subscription check is done when you turn the device on, not during a crash. > KLIM made a mistake here and should have priced the device in such a way to support it for the life of the product. If that means you're buying into a 5 year life after purchase, so be it. They offer that option. You can buy the vest in one lump sum with no subscription.
- nexuist 6y ago
  Kind of an interesting dilemma. Charge full price, only rich people can afford it, poor people die. Charge a subscription, poor person affords it for a while, bank account gets overdrafted, poor person dies. On the other hand, charge a subscription, poor person affords a safety feature they previously couldn't use, saves their life. Isn't that the more ethical option? If the full price is $800 then they're actually selling the vest to you at a 50% discount and hoping to recoup the costs through the subscription. You're getting a safety product for 50% off and you don't even have to pay back the other 50% if you don't think you'll need it. Hm.
  - Enginerrrd 6y ago
    >Isn't that the more ethical option? No. As a civil engineer that routinely works with and designs safety-critcal systems, and understands the concept of "public trust" and personal liability as Engineer of Record, whoever designed this is an absolute psychopath.
    - kjs3 6y ago
      Exactly. That's why "software engineering" will never have the equivalent of a PE. Terribly inconvenient to "move fast and break things" when you're obligated to give a shit about the collateral damage when something breaks.
      - livinginfear 6y ago
        This is not true at all. There are entire, large sections of the industry devoted to creating safety-critical software. These areas of the industry are well disciplined and highly regulated. This software is designed in such a way to make collateral damage impossible in all but the most exceptional scenarios. This popular silly web programming stuff is truly only the tip of the software engineering iceberg.
        kjs3 5y ago
        No, it's completely true. There are relatively tiny, quite niche sections of the industry devoted to creating safety-critical software in a systematic, engineered manner. I've been part of it. My company has more people writing Java/Cobol business apps than all of NASA has writing true high-reliability code. Even then, while folks writing mission critical code might be 'disciplined', there is no equivalent of the NSPE regulating what someone needs to know to do this, no universally agreed upon standards for what constitutes "safety-critical" or even consensus metrics for how to assess whether something is or not. There are literally hundreds of different guidelines for "how to engineer safe software", but no canonical guide. Even stuff like "can you use C to write software 'in such a way to make collateral damage impossible in all but the most exceptional scenarios'" is a matter of furious debate; some say yes, some say no.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  There's nothing to subscribe to, no actual service being provided at the operational level. It's a financing scheme similar to a leasing arrangement; the only internet check here is whether your payments are up to date. Imagine a helmet that you paid for in installments, but that lost its structural integrity if you fell behind.
  - squarefoot 6y ago
    Or an alarm system that left your house open for the same reason.
  - dahart 6y ago
    Yes, it's a financing plan. Their web page says so plainly. Unlike your mortgage, if you fail to pay, you get to keep the vest and restart the payment plan. When you pay for a helmet in installments and stop paying, it's worse than losing structural integrity; a collector comes to take the helmet away and you have no helmet.
    - hluska 6y ago
      There’s a difference. If a collector comes and takes my helmet, I won’t get on a bike without it because I’m a stickler for keeping my brain inside my skull. If there is a bug anywhere between the global payment system and this product, I may not even know.
      - dahart 5y ago
        > If there is a bug anywhere between the global payment system and this product, I may not even know. Why are you speculating about this and suggesting it will operate in a way that directly contradicts their documentation? It states clearly that the system has to be turned on and will reach "ride ready state". This means that you will know whether it's functioning before you ride, even if there is a bug in their payment system.
        Swenrekcah 5y ago
- randcraw 6y ago
  I start my bikes and cars inside a garage where there's limited RF signal due to no line of sight to towers. If this thing fails to initiate service correctly, the maker of this product will be in for a world of hurt after my heirs sue them into the ground for failing to deliver their service. Air bag makers like Takata know the high cost of poorly designed airbags all too well. Inviting [b|m]illions in liability through a service model that requires a successful login before every use is nuts. Login failure could also happen inside a parking garage w/o signal, or in a large city where RF shadows from tall buildings block signal, or in a woods that's too far from cellular towers to receive a signal, or it could fail on restart after the engine stalls on the road. I wonder if the maker will choose not to sell their product in the US where personal injury attorneys are probably already licking their lips. This service model may make sense on a racetrack, but not so much in the real world.
- hluska 6y ago
  So if Klim’s security/build/release processes are imperfect, I’ll die?? I’m going to pass. This is fucking insane.
anigbrowl 6y ago
I don't think they 'made a mistake'. They just realized that they wouldn't sell many at $800, and that they'd probably make more by appearing the cut the price and flogging a subscription model. Unfortunately for them they hired a comms director who comes off as a sociopath and thinks hostage taking is a reasonable business model.
nosianu 6y ago
Worse, even if you agree, missing payments without noticing it is easy. You might get your life saver disabled even though you have plenty of money and are willing to pay and think you set everything up. For example, it works for a while, then you overdraw one of your accounts because a transfer is late (you still have plenty of money overall), the bank stops the payment from that account. Even if they don't disable right away, add a few more delays. I had an address change once and they sent the notice for a missed payment to the old address of my business - so I only noticed it when the service was cut off. The bill also had been sent there so I never knew I had to pay. Do you want to say "tough luck" to customers who rely on the protection and miss a payment only because of bad luck? Is even forgetfulness (so 100% "their own fault") worth a potential death sentence? . Note that the address change issue also once happened to me after I had already informed the other party of my new address. It was the IRS, they still sent their requests to my old address, months later, and then got a court order to get the money from my bank account without my knowledge or consent. I never knew they had wanted something from me, and I had given them the new address. So it can happen even if you do everything right.
foxyv 5y ago
A determined commuter can ride bicycles/motorcycles on ice just fine with the right equipment. Just need tire studs and some good winter tires. They do it in Netherlands and northern Europe all the time. https://www.amazon.com/Estink-Anti-Slip-Chains-Spikes-Motorcycle/dp/B077PBGLKD https://www.amazon.com/Estink-Anti-Slip-Chains-Spikes-Motorc... https://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Spiker-Studded-Mountain-Bicycle/dp/B00NZ73Q9C/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=studded+bicycle+snow+tires&qid=1620310451&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Spiker-Studded-Mountain-Bicy...

dharmab 6y ago

> Not enough time to ask an API if your subscription is valid. Common misconception. The subscription check is done when you turn the device on, not during a crash. > KLIM made a mistake here and should have priced the device in such a way to support it for the life of the product. If that means you're buying into a 5 year life after purchase, so be it. They offer that option. You can buy the vest in one lump sum with no subscription.

nexuist 6y ago
Kind of an interesting dilemma. Charge full price, only rich people can afford it, poor people die. Charge a subscription, poor person affords it for a while, bank account gets overdrafted, poor person dies. On the other hand, charge a subscription, poor person affords a safety feature they previously couldn't use, saves their life. Isn't that the more ethical option? If the full price is $800 then they're actually selling the vest to you at a 50% discount and hoping to recoup the costs through the subscription. You're getting a safety product for 50% off and you don't even have to pay back the other 50% if you don't think you'll need it. Hm.
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  >Isn't that the more ethical option? No. As a civil engineer that routinely works with and designs safety-critcal systems, and understands the concept of "public trust" and personal liability as Engineer of Record, whoever designed this is an absolute psychopath.
  - kjs3 6y ago
    Exactly. That's why "software engineering" will never have the equivalent of a PE. Terribly inconvenient to "move fast and break things" when you're obligated to give a shit about the collateral damage when something breaks.
    - livinginfear 6y ago
      This is not true at all. There are entire, large sections of the industry devoted to creating safety-critical software. These areas of the industry are well disciplined and highly regulated. This software is designed in such a way to make collateral damage impossible in all but the most exceptional scenarios. This popular silly web programming stuff is truly only the tip of the software engineering iceberg.
      - kjs3 5y ago
        No, it's completely true. There are relatively tiny, quite niche sections of the industry devoted to creating safety-critical software in a systematic, engineered manner. I've been part of it. My company has more people writing Java/Cobol business apps than all of NASA has writing true high-reliability code. Even then, while folks writing mission critical code might be 'disciplined', there is no equivalent of the NSPE regulating what someone needs to know to do this, no universally agreed upon standards for what constitutes "safety-critical" or even consensus metrics for how to assess whether something is or not. There are literally hundreds of different guidelines for "how to engineer safe software", but no canonical guide. Even stuff like "can you use C to write software 'in such a way to make collateral damage impossible in all but the most exceptional scenarios'" is a matter of furious debate; some say yes, some say no.
anigbrowl 6y ago
There's nothing to subscribe to, no actual service being provided at the operational level. It's a financing scheme similar to a leasing arrangement; the only internet check here is whether your payments are up to date. Imagine a helmet that you paid for in installments, but that lost its structural integrity if you fell behind.
- squarefoot 6y ago
  Or an alarm system that left your house open for the same reason.
- dahart 6y ago
  Yes, it's a financing plan. Their web page says so plainly. Unlike your mortgage, if you fail to pay, you get to keep the vest and restart the payment plan. When you pay for a helmet in installments and stop paying, it's worse than losing structural integrity; a collector comes to take the helmet away and you have no helmet.
  - hluska 6y ago
    There’s a difference. If a collector comes and takes my helmet, I won’t get on a bike without it because I’m a stickler for keeping my brain inside my skull. If there is a bug anywhere between the global payment system and this product, I may not even know.
    - dahart 5y ago
      > If there is a bug anywhere between the global payment system and this product, I may not even know. Why are you speculating about this and suggesting it will operate in a way that directly contradicts their documentation? It states clearly that the system has to be turned on and will reach "ride ready state". This means that you will know whether it's functioning before you ride, even if there is a bug in their payment system.
      - Swenrekcah 5y ago
randcraw 6y ago
I start my bikes and cars inside a garage where there's limited RF signal due to no line of sight to towers. If this thing fails to initiate service correctly, the maker of this product will be in for a world of hurt after my heirs sue them into the ground for failing to deliver their service. Air bag makers like Takata know the high cost of poorly designed airbags all too well. Inviting [b|m]illions in liability through a service model that requires a successful login before every use is nuts. Login failure could also happen inside a parking garage w/o signal, or in a large city where RF shadows from tall buildings block signal, or in a woods that's too far from cellular towers to receive a signal, or it could fail on restart after the engine stalls on the road. I wonder if the maker will choose not to sell their product in the US where personal injury attorneys are probably already licking their lips. This service model may make sense on a racetrack, but not so much in the real world.
hluska 6y ago
So if Klim’s security/build/release processes are imperfect, I’ll die?? I’m going to pass. This is fucking insane.

anigbrowl 6y ago

I don't think they 'made a mistake'. They just realized that they wouldn't sell many at $800, and that they'd probably make more by appearing the cut the price and flogging a subscription model. Unfortunately for them they hired a comms director who comes off as a sociopath and thinks hostage taking is a reasonable business model.

nosianu 6y ago

Worse, even if you agree, missing payments without noticing it is easy. You might get your life saver disabled even though you have plenty of money and are willing to pay and think you set everything up. For example, it works for a while, then you overdraw one of your accounts because a transfer is late (you still have plenty of money overall), the bank stops the payment from that account. Even if they don't disable right away, add a few more delays. I had an address change once and they sent the notice for a missed payment to the old address of my business - so I only noticed it when the service was cut off. The bill also had been sent there so I never knew I had to pay. Do you want to say "tough luck" to customers who rely on the protection and miss a payment only because of bad luck? Is even forgetfulness (so 100% "their own fault") worth a potential death sentence? . Note that the address change issue also once happened to me after I had already informed the other party of my new address. It was the IRS, they still sent their requests to my old address, months later, and then got a court order to get the money from my bank account without my knowledge or consent. I never knew they had wanted something from me, and I had given them the new address. So it can happen even if you do everything right.

foxyv 5y ago

A determined commuter can ride bicycles/motorcycles on ice just fine with the right equipment. Just need tire studs and some good winter tires. They do it in Netherlands and northern Europe all the time. https://www.amazon.com/Estink-Anti-Slip-Chains-Spikes-Motorcycle/dp/B077PBGLKD https://www.amazon.com/Estink-Anti-Slip-Chains-Spikes-Motorc... https://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Spiker-Studded-Mountain-Bicycle/dp/B00NZ73Q9C/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=studded+bicycle+snow+tires&qid=1620310451&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Spiker-Studded-Mountain-Bicy...