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You do realise you basically just said "science should only be used when it suits my political views" Science is science. If you can't deal with the facts that

by zpeti 5y ago

You do realise you basically just said "science should only be used when it suits my political views" Science is science. If you can't deal with the facts that's your problem. If the facts are difficult, we need to work hard to come up with good solutions to hard problems. Putting your head in the sand and denying the facts will probably come back to bite you later very hard.

MyHypatia 5y ago
Okay, so if someone conducts a scientific study that people from your demographic are less likely to pay back loans, and a bank uses that to deny you a loan to start your business. What are you going to do? Are you going to accept that "science is science" and the people in your group are worse on average, so you as an individual shouldn't get to start a business? If you object are you just someone who "can't deal with the facts", and "putting your head in the sand" and denying the facts that the bank is probably right, someone from your background is going to fail anyway? Or will you just say, "Okay, science is science. The wiser have spoken, I will now give up on my dreams."
- zpeti 5y ago
  1. You can seek out a lender who specialises in higher risk loans 2. If there isn't one, you can start a lender that does that, since there is probably a business opportunity if noone is doing it. 3. You can convince friends and family that you are more reliable than your demographic and get angel investments from them. 4. You can convince VCs that you are more reliable than your demographic and get investment 5. You can try and aim for quick profitability and bootstrap your business. 6. You can complain about your victimhood and do nothing.
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    Ok, if you're just going to lie down and accept paying higher interest rates or jumping through hoops because you're male/female/black/white then go ahead. I don't accept having to jump through additional hoops or having to pay more money because of demographic factors. And thankfully there are laws today that prevent banks from refusing to loan people money because they are black, female, etc.
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      This is why we have regulations that explicitly bar discrimination based on race. Turning a blind eye to science isn’t solving the problem. It’s oppression.
bitwize 5y ago
Part of supporting justice means, yes, an admission that some lines of scientific inquiry should not be pursued if such research has a history of, or propensity toward, bias that leads to further injustice. We condemn scientists who decapitate monkeys to see if their heads will function on different bodies, irrespective of the knowledge gained, and are willing to sacrifice that knowledge in exchange for knowing our science is done humanely. > we need to work hard to come up with good solutions to hard problems. But until such solutions are forthcoming, putting the research out there runs the risk of strengthening or encouraging bigots. Maybe what we need is a policy of "responsible disclosure" wherein research results aren't widely disclosed until social solutions are already in place. But even that is fraught with difficulty and risk. Better to just not touch the radioactive topics of racial and gender differences that may lead to discrimination.

by zpeti 5y ago

MyHypatia 5y ago

Okay, so if someone conducts a scientific study that people from your demographic are less likely to pay back loans, and a bank uses that to deny you a loan to start your business. What are you going to do? Are you going to accept that "science is science" and the people in your group are worse on average, so you as an individual shouldn't get to start a business? If you object are you just someone who "can't deal with the facts", and "putting your head in the sand" and denying the facts that the bank is probably right, someone from your background is going to fail anyway? Or will you just say, "Okay, science is science. The wiser have spoken, I will now give up on my dreams."

zpeti 5y ago
1. You can seek out a lender who specialises in higher risk loans 2. If there isn't one, you can start a lender that does that, since there is probably a business opportunity if noone is doing it. 3. You can convince friends and family that you are more reliable than your demographic and get angel investments from them. 4. You can convince VCs that you are more reliable than your demographic and get investment 5. You can try and aim for quick profitability and bootstrap your business. 6. You can complain about your victimhood and do nothing.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  Ok, if you're just going to lie down and accept paying higher interest rates or jumping through hoops because you're male/female/black/white then go ahead. I don't accept having to jump through additional hoops or having to pay more money because of demographic factors. And thankfully there are laws today that prevent banks from refusing to loan people money because they are black, female, etc.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    This is why we have regulations that explicitly bar discrimination based on race. Turning a blind eye to science isn’t solving the problem. It’s oppression.

bitwize 5y ago

Part of supporting justice means, yes, an admission that some lines of scientific inquiry should not be pursued if such research has a history of, or propensity toward, bias that leads to further injustice. We condemn scientists who decapitate monkeys to see if their heads will function on different bodies, irrespective of the knowledge gained, and are willing to sacrifice that knowledge in exchange for knowing our science is done humanely. > we need to work hard to come up with good solutions to hard problems. But until such solutions are forthcoming, putting the research out there runs the risk of strengthening or encouraging bigots. Maybe what we need is a policy of "responsible disclosure" wherein research results aren't widely disclosed until social solutions are already in place. But even that is fraught with difficulty and risk. Better to just not touch the radioactive topics of racial and gender differences that may lead to discrimination.