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Motorcycle airbag vest will stop working if you miss a payment

179 points by elliekelly 6y ago

yurishimo 6y ago
Honestly, not surprising. Motorcycles are a time-limited recreational activity in many countries around the world, as 2 wheels become extremely dangerous on public roads when ice and snow are present. It seems like a decent idea on it's face to save money when you don't need it, but I would question why it needs any online capabilities at all. All of the processing needs to be done on the device, as we're talking about fractions of a second to decide if inflation is required in the event of a crash. Not enough time to ask an API if your subscription is valid. KLIM made a mistake here and should have priced the device in such a way to support it for the life of the product. If that means you're buying into a 5 year life after purchase, so be it. Instead, they're purposefully selling a product that could be deadly under the guise of, "but you save money!". I expect the airbags in my car to work all the time. If I buy a safety feature, that safety feature should work 100% unless I explicitly disable it. What's amazing is the world of motorcycles already has this concept in production. Most bikes with ABS have the option to disable it for offroad use. After disabling it, I then can ride around and do all the crazy stuff I want and turn it back on when I'm ready. Heck, some manufacturers even re-enable it automatically after the bike is shut off and started again. Bad move by KLIM imo.
- dharmab 6y ago
  > Not enough time to ask an API if your subscription is valid. Common misconception. The subscription check is done when you turn the device on, not during a crash. > KLIM made a mistake here and should have priced the device in such a way to support it for the life of the product. If that means you're buying into a 5 year life after purchase, so be it. They offer that option. You can buy the vest in one lump sum with no subscription.
  - nexuist 6y ago
    Kind of an interesting dilemma. Charge full price, only rich people can afford it, poor people die. Charge a subscription, poor person affords it for a while, bank account gets overdrafted, poor person dies. On the other hand, charge a subscription, poor person affords a safety feature they previously couldn't use, saves their life. Isn't that the more ethical option? If the full price is $800 then they're actually selling the vest to you at a 50% discount and hoping to recoup the costs through the subscription. You're getting a safety product for 50% off and you don't even have to pay back the other 50% if you don't think you'll need it. Hm.
    - Enginerrrd 6y ago
      >Isn't that the more ethical option? No. As a civil engineer that routinely works with and designs safety-critcal systems, and understands the concept of "public trust" and personal liability as Engineer of Record, whoever designed this is an absolute psychopath.
      - kjs3 6y ago
        Exactly. That's why "software engineering" will never have the equivalent of a PE. Terribly inconvenient to "move fast and break things" when you're obligated to give a shit about the collateral damage when something breaks.
        livinginfear 6y ago
        This is not true at all. There are entire, large sections of the industry devoted to creating safety-critical software. These areas of the industry are well disciplined and highly regulated. This software is designed in such a way to make collateral damage impossible in all but the most exceptional scenarios. This popular silly web programming stuff is truly only the tip of the software engineering iceberg.
        kjs3 6y ago
        No, it's completely true. There are relatively tiny, quite niche sections of the industry devoted to creating safety-critical software in a systematic, engineered manner. I've been part of it. My company has more people writing Java/Cobol business apps than all of NASA has writing true high-reliability code. Even then, while folks writing mission critical code might be 'disciplined', there is no equivalent of the NSPE regulating what someone needs to know to do this, no universally agreed upon standards for what constitutes "safety-critical" or even consensus metrics for how to assess whether something is or not. There are literally hundreds of different guidelines for "how to engineer safe software", but no canonical guide. Even stuff like "can you use C to write software 'in such a way to make collateral damage impossible in all but the most exceptional scenarios'" is a matter of furious debate; some say yes, some say no.
  - anigbrowl 6y ago
    There's nothing to subscribe to, no actual service being provided at the operational level. It's a financing scheme similar to a leasing arrangement; the only internet check here is whether your payments are up to date. Imagine a helmet that you paid for in installments, but that lost its structural integrity if you fell behind.
    - squarefoot 6y ago
      Or an alarm system that left your house open for the same reason.
    - dahart 6y ago
      Yes, it's a financing plan. Their web page says so plainly. Unlike your mortgage, if you fail to pay, you get to keep the vest and restart the payment plan. When you pay for a helmet in installments and stop paying, it's worse than losing structural integrity; a collector comes to take the helmet away and you have no helmet.
      - hluska 6y ago
        There’s a difference. If a collector comes and takes my helmet, I won’t get on a bike without it because I’m a stickler for keeping my brain inside my skull. If there is a bug anywhere between the global payment system and this product, I may not even know.
        dahart 6y ago
        > If there is a bug anywhere between the global payment system and this product, I may not even know. Why are you speculating about this and suggesting it will operate in a way that directly contradicts their documentation? It states clearly that the system has to be turned on and will reach "ride ready state". This means that you will know whether it's functioning before you ride, even if there is a bug in their payment system.
        Swenrekcah 6y ago
  - randcraw 6y ago
    I start my bikes and cars inside a garage where there's limited RF signal due to no line of sight to towers. If this thing fails to initiate service correctly, the maker of this product will be in for a world of hurt after my heirs sue them into the ground for failing to deliver their service. Air bag makers like Takata know the high cost of poorly designed airbags all too well. Inviting [b|m]illions in liability through a service model that requires a successful login before every use is nuts. Login failure could also happen inside a parking garage w/o signal, or in a large city where RF shadows from tall buildings block signal, or in a woods that's too far from cellular towers to receive a signal, or it could fail on restart after the engine stalls on the road. I wonder if the maker will choose not to sell their product in the US where personal injury attorneys are probably already licking their lips. This service model may make sense on a racetrack, but not so much in the real world.
  - hluska 6y ago
    So if Klim’s security/build/release processes are imperfect, I’ll die?? I’m going to pass. This is fucking insane.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  I don't think they 'made a mistake'. They just realized that they wouldn't sell many at $800, and that they'd probably make more by appearing the cut the price and flogging a subscription model. Unfortunately for them they hired a comms director who comes off as a sociopath and thinks hostage taking is a reasonable business model.
- nosianu 6y ago
  Worse, even if you agree, missing payments without noticing it is easy. You might get your life saver disabled even though you have plenty of money and are willing to pay and think you set everything up. For example, it works for a while, then you overdraw one of your accounts because a transfer is late (you still have plenty of money overall), the bank stops the payment from that account. Even if they don't disable right away, add a few more delays. I had an address change once and they sent the notice for a missed payment to the old address of my business - so I only noticed it when the service was cut off. The bill also had been sent there so I never knew I had to pay. Do you want to say "tough luck" to customers who rely on the protection and miss a payment only because of bad luck? Is even forgetfulness (so 100% "their own fault") worth a potential death sentence? . Note that the address change issue also once happened to me after I had already informed the other party of my new address. It was the IRS, they still sent their requests to my old address, months later, and then got a court order to get the money from my bank account without my knowledge or consent. I never knew they had wanted something from me, and I had given them the new address. So it can happen even if you do everything right.
- foxyv 6y ago
  A determined commuter can ride bicycles/motorcycles on ice just fine with the right equipment. Just need tire studs and some good winter tires. They do it in Netherlands and northern Europe all the time. https://www.amazon.com/Estink-Anti-Slip-Chains-Spikes-Motorcycle/dp/B077PBGLKD https://www.amazon.com/Estink-Anti-Slip-Chains-Spikes-Motorc... https://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Spiker-Studded-Mountain-Bicycle/dp/B00NZ73Q9C/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=studded+bicycle+snow+tires&qid=1620310451&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Spiker-Studded-Mountain-Bicy...
dharmab 6y ago
Note that you have the option of purchasing the vest outright, and there's also a purchase option if you subscribe for 3 years, similar to a lease. In conclusion, buy a Helite Turtle. Fully offline, no electronics, and user-refillable with simple CO2 cartridges. Fortnine did a great video surverying motorcycle airbag tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2jZryt607U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2jZryt607U
- nexuist 6y ago
  No electronics? How does it detect crashes?
  - dharmab 6y ago
    It uses a calibrated tether from the rider to the bike. If the tether detaches, a valve is opened that inflates the vest. The tether is strong enough that it won't activate by accident but weak enough to activate in a get-off crash.
- kristofferR 6y ago
  The Helite e-Turtle is probably a better choice for those who aren't trying to save money. You still get the same great west with user-refillable cartridges, just a quicker response and no tether. The only downside (apart from the increased cost) is the charging process. The fork sensor is also really neat. Regardless of if you go for a tether-Turtle or a e-Turtle though, it's a vastly better west than the one this article talks about. Nevermind the horrific subscription model, it also provides way less protection than a Turtle (which inflates and limits head/neck movement, vital in a crash).
  - JulDav 5y ago
    You can go for one time payment if you don't like to pay monthly, inflation time 3 times faster => vital for a collision, by the highest experience and proven real crashes situations
  - JulDav 5y ago
    In&motion as, by far; much more experience in smart systems (MotoGP, Dakar Rally, Ski Racing) and they work with 7 recognized brands and they have offices in the US and Europe.
offtop5 6y ago
Why isn't this illegal ? You can forget to update your credit card number and end up dieing ?
- dharmab 6y ago
  Motorcycle safety gear is almost unregulated in the US. The one regulation (The DOT helmet standard) is an absolute joke. I can legally ride my Suzuki motorcycle, which has a fully custom exhaust, an ultrabright LED floodlight and zero safety features, wearing no safety gear except eyeglasses in my state. (I built it as a dirt bike juuust legal enough to ride to the trailhead.)
  - deelowe 6y ago
    This is a much lager scope problem than motorcycle safety.
northwest65 6y ago
When I pick a new helmet, I pick from brands that have spent years earning my trust. This I will never buy; I just can't deal with a company that from the outset feels grubby.
- infoseek12 6y ago
  I think my favorite quote from the article is: “If they then choose to ignore the indicators and ride with the In&box inactive, that's on them and we can expect it not to inflate in the event of a crash.” When their product doesn’t work, one of their customers dies, and they need to explain to the deceased children why their dads not coming home; I wonder how convincing the “that’s on them” explanation will be.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    The price of life is apparently on the order of $50 or so.
- totalZero 6y ago
  Klim makes good gear. I have only heard positive things about the company prior to seeing this article.
api_or_ipa 6y ago
So... this thing phones home to activate every time you jump on your motorcycle? I would absolutely love to be the lawyer who's client sustained life threatening injuries because your server was temporarily down precisely when it needed to verify DRM on a motorcycle airbag.
- bellyfullofbac 6y ago
  Hah... what if I go on a multi-day ride in an area with no cell coverage? Or in a foreign country where I don't want to activate maybe-expensive data roaming on my phone? Maybe their "Click here to accept" EULA has a clause that you need Internet connectivity at least once a day as well? If the schmairbag has a fail-active functionality, then the hack would be to install their app on a disconnected phone. "I can't contact my stupid-ass rent-seeking makers right now, so I guess I'll keep the airbag functioning".
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  TFA isn't specific but it looks like you have to use an app to turn it on before you ride and the app is the mechanism by which the phone home happens.
  - g_p 6y ago
    Sounds like that's a nice route to forcibly obsolete this well before the end of its usable life by turning off the API servers and saying "it's for your own safety... We have a better newer device now available for only $800 (plus subscription)". Also a nice single point of failure if you can hijack their DNS and deny every activation request (!)
falcolas 6y ago
Imagine a car which won't activate the airbags (or emergency braking sensors, or ABS, or...) if you get in a crash while you're behind on a payment. Scummy. Remember, "entrepreneurs," you can't collect debts from the poor dead (who don't have estates to collect against)
- josefresco 6y ago
  Imagine selling a car airbag system separate from the car.
  - dharmab 6y ago
    Kind of hard to put an airbag on a bike. Honda tried with the Gold Wing. It only worked to prevent an over-the-bars crash. Didn't help in common lowside and highside crashes. Plus most bikes don't have any room for an airbag anyway, as anyone who's had to work on a cramped modern bike can attest to.
  - olyjohn 6y ago
    Would be pretty sweet. We could retrofit older cars with some modern safety features... but the problem is that they have to be integrated into the design of the car. The airbag can't be too close or too far away, or hit you from the wrong angle.. or else it could end up killing you. Also airbags for cars are designed to keep you from smashing your body into the interior of the car. Airbags for riders are to keep you from smashing into the ground or other objects. I think it's pretty rare that colliding with the bike itself happens. That's why bikes don't have airbags on them.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Would be pretty easy to integrate airbags into old cars. Measure minimum distance from seat back to steering wheel and then configure airbag based on that (probably remove jumpers or something to control detonation). Sensor locations are pretty standard and modern airbags and computers are fast enough that you don't need to use crumple zones as a hack to buy time for the bag to go off before the occupant starts moving toward the space the bag will be in.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Someone is going to die from this. Then these guys are going to get sued for every dime they have.
- riffic 6y ago
  ctrl-F, "sued", upvote. My thoughts exactly. this is awful.
- dylan604 6y ago
  Maybe, but you know they have had lawyers involved. I'm guessing that there is a legal agreement somewhere that stipulates this will happen so that the lawyers have covered their backsides. Since it involves downloading an app, it'll probably be a section in the EULA that everyone read before checking that "I Agree" box. right?
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Even if there is such language in the EULA, courts sometimes rule that such language is not legally binding. Sometimes the courts use words like "unconscionable". IANAL, but I sure think that word fits...
    - dylan604 6y ago
      My personal favorite is "no reasonable person". I want to use "no reasonable person" will read the EULA and does not actually agree to what the provider is wishing them to agree.
- cuddlybacon 6y ago
  I doubt it. Besides the EULA that has already been mentioned, the standard equipment is a padded jacket with abrasion resistant fabric. They could probably argue that their product is adding protection above current standards, and a deactivated vest would merely reduce the rider back to the safety level considered standard. I dislike a subscription based airbag vest, but I really don't think they'll get sued over that.
jowsie 6y ago
If you're in the market for a Motorcycle Airbag, this is worth a watch. https://youtu.be/N2jZryt607U https://youtu.be/N2jZryt607U If you don't wanna watch, the Helite Turtle range seem to be the best way to go.
- tyrex2017 6y ago
  thank you!
hprotagonist 6y ago
the CO2 leash style ones are better for most people anyway. Unless you're spending a LOT of time on the track, you want this: https://www.hit-air.com/en/motorcycle/ https://www.hit-air.com/en/motorcycle/ which i prefer over the helite because it has an even more aggressive cervical collar. I'm very comfortable with my Aerostitch as an overall protective garment, but I really want a neck collar too. That this is more or less a RADiKS Kourier onesie is not coincidental.
xg15 6y ago
I'm pretty sure this is illegal at least in Germany. Also: > at some point, if a person stops paying for a service, that service has to be suspended What the fuck is the "service" here? If the whole point of IoT was at the end that you can now declare "not actively making things worse" a service and have a working business model, I think we can now officially declare this trend a net negative on living quality.
- r00fus 6y ago
  It's not like IoT was destined for anything else as long as businesses are allowed (nay, rewarded) to pull that kind of shit.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    > nay, rewarded Really? I see a low hanging fruit opportunity to get rich: manufacture and sell the same motorcycle vest and sell it at an upfront cost equal to some approximate amortization of monthly payments over some average LTV. As a motorcycle rider, I currently have like 10+ different options for motorcycle jackets.
    - vr46 6y ago
      Also as a motorcycle rider, the whole notion of life-saving protection and safety being a "service" suggests that the thing is too complicated to work 100% of the time, with no fail-safe option, and therefore cannot be trusted at any cost. Protective devices need 100% uptime.
      - bhupy 6y ago
        Agreed, it doesn't seem like this would even need to be a "service", at least in the sense that the core functionality of "inflating" can entirely be serviced offline/locally on the jacket. There's so much wrong with the implementation here, and it looks like a bright flashing opportunity for someone to provide a simpler/saner/cheaper alternative and make a quick buck.
mcguire 6y ago
A general question: what evidence is there that airbag vests help?
- samatman 6y ago
  Is this something we need evidence for? A question I would understand is something like "is there a good study on how much an airbag vest helps?". But especially the kind with cervical stabilization, it's pretty much guaranteed to provide some protection. There will be some situations where the rider is injured instead of dead, or bruised instead of injured. RCTs aren't science, we're allowed to reason on the basis of readily-apparent empirical facts.
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    Is this something we need evidence for? Wow. When is the answer to this question not "Yes"?
    - samatman 6y ago
      All the time? Is water wet? Is the grass green? If you're hungry, will eating food relieve hunger? Are you better off falling off a motorbike wearing a jacket or nothing? Ok, how about a blow-up cervical collar?
      - CamperBob2 6y ago
        My guess is, you're either too young to remember what happened when automobile airbags first began to appear, or you just weren't paying attention. Hint: the current recommendation to place children in the rear seats came about as the result of more than a few children being injured or killed by airbags. It transpires that when you use explosives to solve a problem, the unintended consequences can take a while to work out.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  A lot less injuries in MotoGP for starters.
grayhatter 6y ago
The part that gets me, someone wrote this code. Someone was asked to disable a safety device if someone didn't pay, and some software engineer agreed, and then actually wrote that line of code. How could someone willingly agree to that? if (user.last_pmt_date < today - 30daysago) { disable_life_saving_equipment(); }
- yrgulation 6y ago
  Mortgage, bonus, performance reviews and others that make us do things we wish we hadn't. A sad state of affairs.
  - grayhatter 6y ago
    How does someone get to a point where they're willing to hurt someone over money? I understand desperation, life or death. Which I don't believe this is. The simple reason is, indifference. Which I can't wrap my head around. How do you have the ability and knowledge to write software that does this... and still do this?
    - toyg 6y ago
      Ah but you’re not hurting them, you’re “just” turning the other way as they get hurt. You can then justify your behavior with some “personal responsibility” mantra (they should have paid their debts! They should have paid upfront! They should have tried harder to be rich!).
- rutierut 6y ago
  it sounds more like: // start up device if (user.last_pmt_date < today - 30daysago) return "please pay us" but yhea
- function_seven 6y ago
  I would refactor that line of code to ease my conscience: if (user.subscription.is_current()) { add_value(); } Of course, add_value() then enables the technology. And I'm not "disabling" anything, merely adding value when appropriate!
FpUser 6y ago
I think they're up for a big trouble as soon as somebody dies / gets injured and the lawsuit comes. And in this case I wish they get punished to oblivion. Something in this way of selling does not add up in my brain from the ethics point of view.
pcl 6y ago
I think I’d be more ok with this if you couldn’t actually put the vest on when it’s been bricked. I understand the allure of the subscription model, but if I put on a piece of safety equipment, I think I should be able to expect it to work.
yowlingcat 6y ago
Serious question: how likely is this to stand up to regulatory scrutiny? Given that they seem to be incorporated in the US and the EU, if a rider dies because the vest didn't inflate and, say, their family sues the company, is the company likely to fold into oblivion so no one tries this dumb stunt again? If I remember correctly, this was what led to auto safety features in the first place (IE Nader's Unsafe At Any Speed).
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  In the US, the regulatory car is on fire and there's no driver at the wheel.
- dharmab 5y ago
  LOL there's barely any regulation of motorcycle safety in the US. ABS brakes aren't even mandated here. Pretty much the only regulation is the laughably bad DOT helmet standard. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY). Every rider I know who wears a helmet, buys an ECE or Snell helmet instead.
kjs3 6y ago
Survival as a Service. Nice. FWIW...This is pretty much a great way to get sued senseless in case you think this is a great business model. The minute someone dies wearing a switched off vest, an army of PI lawyers will be foaming at the mouth to get "why did this person die because they were late on a payment" in front of a jury. Edit: In the US at least, your jurisdictional mileage may vary.
AlexandrB 6y ago
What worries me more is all the complex interactions required to make this work. The ability to remotely disable a safety system due to non-payment means that all the components in the payment chain are now potentially safety-critical. I wonder how Apple/Google pay engineers feel about that. Edit: And this may remain true even if the rider chooses the one-time payment option. Depending on implementation, bugs, etc.
dahart 6y ago
This is a little bit of click-bait, and the incredulity and pitchforks are over-reacting. The title & article were designed to stoke fears. It's a payment plan, just like anything else we finance, houses, cars, motorcycles. Failure to pay normally means you lose the thing outright, at least in this case you keep the vest and have the option to resume the payment plan. They explain clearly that you won't accidentally die, because it will be obvious when you put it on and try to turn on the power. Notice that the advantages of their financing plan actually address a bunch of things that people complain about wrt software subscriptions: - Spread out the spending - Make the initial price cheaper - Stop payments when not in use (!) - Upgrades over time - Buyout option after three years In terms of rent-seeking subscription models, this one is way better than most of the stuff on the internet, I hope more subscriptions take note of this kind of pricing. And it's making a motorcycle airbag more accessible to riders, that's a good thing too.
- bhupy 6y ago
  I don't necessarily disagree with your perspective here, it makes sense. That being said, with payment plans, there's typically some notion of an interest rate. If you miss a payment, you "just" owe the compounding interest (eventually). Typically, rates are regulated, and even when it's not regulated, usury is highly frowned upon. Taking your analogy to its conclusion, the "interest rate" for nonpayment here could potentially be outright death when the thing in question stops working. It's hard to put a dollar value on a human life, but that's a hell of an interest rate!
  - dahart 6y ago
    It doesn't stop working while you're riding, that's just hyperbole stirred up by this headline. This is not a safety issue, nor is this unreasonable "usury". Just like any financing plan in existence, the interest rate here is that the total cost of ownership is higher on the payment plan than on the alternative pay-up-front plan they offer. The benefit of the payment plan is you can start for less money. The unusual feature of this payment plan compared to your house, car, or credit cards is you get to pause and/or cancel it with no penalties.
motohagiography 6y ago
Now do insulin...ah, too late.
thebruce87m 6y ago
I wonder how long the subscribe process is. If it’s measured in milliseconds you could use an accelerometer to detect an impact and subscribe mid-crash. JIT airbagging.
- Workaccount2 6y ago
  High frequency trading tech finds a new field.
- toyg 6y ago
  You have to factor in phone connection, which can take a while - or not work at all, if you’re sufficiently remote… which I’m sure never happens when you’re riding a motorbike for fun /s
  - thebruce87m 6y ago
    I would also recommend crashing close to the server to keep latency down too.
MengerSponge 6y ago
This is wild. It's the most Snow Crash nonsense I've ever seen.
tyrex2017 6y ago
Maybe they say this to incentivize subscribers to continue paying Meanwhile, it will work always anyway. Thats how I would build it
livinginfear 6y ago
As vile as this is, at least you can buy it outright. That puts it so far ahead of nearly the entire predatory SaaS ecosystem. I use Photoshop and Illustrator once a month. Still, for some strange reason I overpay to keep up an Adobe Creative Cloud subscription. Ideally I'd vote with my wallet and stop paying companies with such anti-consumer practices.
- sideshowb 6y ago
  But if you buy outright does your product still need to contact the server to verify you bought it outright?
akomtu 6y ago
Well, IoT is just an amplifier and enabler of the rich people's desires. If they were good, their goodness would radiate thru this new IoT channel, but our society is still immature, it promotes sociopaths to the top and so their greed and evilness floods over the IoT gates.
t-writescode 6y ago
How can I trust that something like this has gone through the appropriate, rigorous level of critical systems testing to keep me alive if it's using a phone-home, bluetooth app to make logic decisions?
- g_p 6y ago
  Don't forget their secure boot measures on the onboard microcontroller, to stop malware or a rogue Bluetooth device doing an OTA DFU update to swap around the GPIO pins to indicate "activated" and not actually arm the system... Some kinds of devices just shouldn't be connected - they should be sold and bought as-is, and function independently of outside factors, as they are safety devices.
- dharmab 6y ago
  Oh man, wait until you find out about motorcycle helmets! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    This is completely different. A helmet is a piece of physical equipment that uses the physical properties of its ingredients and the structure of that equipment to operate. There is no logic in a helmet that impacts its safety feature. This is a jacket that can, in software, decide to not do what it's designed to do.
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    This is the second FortNine link I've come across in this thread and, even though I have less than zero interest in anything related to motorcycles, the channel is awesome! Surprisingly interest content.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  I want to know the engineers' names that signed off on this design.
SergeAx 6y ago
Fire extinguishers are next.
trainsplanes 6y ago
We’re rapidly approaching an Ubik-like future where every object demands payment before use. Maybe the idea of paying to open a fridge or unlock a door wasn’t just a silly sci-fi concept—maybe the wrong person just hasn’t considered doing such a thing yet.
dsr_ 6y ago
No hacker will ever remotely de-activate the vest. Except the hackers working at Klim, I suppose.
graiz 6y ago
If the product is too expensive they should sell it with an optional payment plan with Affirm or a similar company that acts like a credit card with the hardware fully paid upfront. This is what Peleton uses... Tying payment to safety functionality is just waiting for a lawsuit.
ericol 6y ago
I think we're starting to see the beginning of LAAS (Life as a Service)/s This is getting utterly ridiculous.
123123as1asd12 6y ago
tbh if you're missing payments of $12 a month for your safety device, You should not be out having fun. you should be working.
- Fuzzeh 6y ago
  I ride to work.
- dharmab 5y ago
  While the majority of motorcycles in the US are recreational, there are many of us who use them as our primary commuter vehicle. Outside of the US, this is much more common, especially in Asia.
jacquesm 6y ago
Any kind of grafted on service should be rejected. If a safety device requires an internet connection to work at all it should not pass first base but be rejected outright. After all, it might be some other bug or issue that causes you to lose your life or health.
liendolucas 6y ago
They deserve to go bankrupt. For sure you can get for 800 bucks a more than decent motorcycle protective jacket than this joke.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
There's not a jury in the world that would not pave this company flat when the first death occurs because the rider missed a payment. (Or more likely because the rider kept up with the payments but the Internet-of-Shit software screwed up.)
Dan_JiuJitsu 6y ago
Um no. This absolutely precludes purchasing this shit.
awhitby 6y ago
I agree this feels pretty questionable, but if you take that view, you should ask yourself how you feel about the Garmin inReach Mini [1] (and possibly other devices in that family). It's an emergency satellite SOS device for outdoor recreation, with a monthly subscription option—and many features beyond pure SOS. When the subscription is suspended though, the SOS functionality will not work (unlike, say, a cellphone). And yet it is—from my observation—an incredibly popular device, and I would bet that the start/stop monthly plan is the most popular (it's the one I use). Obvious one difference is that here you get something for your monthly subscription (maintenance of the Iridium network, an emergency response center, etc). But given the incredibly low rate of people pushing the SOS button, the relatively low cost of that happening (it's not like they actually mount the search and rescue, they just pass on a message), and the incredibly high benefits, how different is it really? [1] https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/592606 https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/592606
g_p 6y ago
Has there been any suggestion as to what happens when the company behind this inevitably goes bankrupt (all companies will eventually fail) or is "acquired" and scuttled? Or they cease to desire to provide the API backend for the mobile app? It strikes me safety critical equipment is the one time when we don't want any kind of dependency on an external hosted service. As it stands right now, it seems like even a fully paid-up, owned outright version could cease to function if they lost control of their domain name? Am I correct in my understanding this product is tied to your phone to "call home" and validate its state? If so, doesn't that mean it's unusable without your phone being working, charged, non-stolen and non-broken? And the same for their servers. So you could in theory go on a journey protected, stop for a break, and find you can't continue your journey protected as you're out of signal, or something has broken? This feels like a good opportunity for a government to take a stance on safety products. At the very least they'll reduce the amount of eWaste when these stop working before the end of their useful life.
stuaxo 6y ago
This sounds like corporate manslaughter.
Fuzzeh 6y ago
Looking at this in a bit more detail. Any aibag using the In&Motion controller suffers from the same fate. Furygan, RST etc.
bokohut 5y ago
I have several quips on this, some dry and most morbid unfortunately, as there is no other way but the truth to paint it. I am really looking forward to the day when medical device manufactures realize the profit opportunities from this technique by adding "features". Can anyone here provide a better reason than to always put one's health first? 1) The rich get richer, they also live longer too. 2) Please have finance work with data analysis on subscriptions to run a report against the master death file as we need to purge those who will no longer be paying. Data storage costs money and we do not need to keep rotting data. 3) Please contact the CEO, the CLO and the board. Let them know we are forwarding a voicemail we just received. The system architects designed the MVP based on first and last name for unique identification instead of a proper Uuid in the system. Time didn't allow us to refactor based on management pressures so when a customer, John Smith, failed to pay the system disabled every John Smith vest. A John Smith in good financial standing was killed last week and his widow just called and had her lawyer on the phone - she made some very impactful statements. Please consider this my two weeks notice as well.
trowa159 5y ago
hahahahaha, pay up or die. best business idea everrr

179 points by elliekelly 6y ago

Honestly, not surprising. Motorcycles are a time-limited recreational activity in many countries around the world, as 2 wheels become extremely dangerous on public roads when ice and snow are present. It seems like a decent idea on it's face to save money when you don't need it, but I would question why it needs any online capabilities at all. All of the processing needs to be done on the device, as we're talking about fractions of a second to decide if inflation is required in the event of a crash. Not enough time to ask an API if your subscription is valid. KLIM made a mistake here and should have priced the device in such a way to support it for the life of the product. If that means you're buying into a 5 year life after purchase, so be it. Instead, they're purposefully selling a product that could be deadly under the guise of, "but you save money!". I expect the airbags in my car to work all the time. If I buy a safety feature, that safety feature should work 100% unless I explicitly disable it. What's amazing is the world of motorcycles already has this concept in production. Most bikes with ABS have the option to disable it for offroad use. After disabling it, I then can ride around and do all the crazy stuff I want and turn it back on when I'm ready. Heck, some manufacturers even re-enable it automatically after the bike is shut off and started again. Bad move by KLIM imo.

dharmab 6y ago
> Not enough time to ask an API if your subscription is valid. Common misconception. The subscription check is done when you turn the device on, not during a crash. > KLIM made a mistake here and should have priced the device in such a way to support it for the life of the product. If that means you're buying into a 5 year life after purchase, so be it. They offer that option. You can buy the vest in one lump sum with no subscription.
- nexuist 6y ago
  Kind of an interesting dilemma. Charge full price, only rich people can afford it, poor people die. Charge a subscription, poor person affords it for a while, bank account gets overdrafted, poor person dies. On the other hand, charge a subscription, poor person affords a safety feature they previously couldn't use, saves their life. Isn't that the more ethical option? If the full price is $800 then they're actually selling the vest to you at a 50% discount and hoping to recoup the costs through the subscription. You're getting a safety product for 50% off and you don't even have to pay back the other 50% if you don't think you'll need it. Hm.
  - Enginerrrd 6y ago
    >Isn't that the more ethical option? No. As a civil engineer that routinely works with and designs safety-critcal systems, and understands the concept of "public trust" and personal liability as Engineer of Record, whoever designed this is an absolute psychopath.
    - kjs3 6y ago
      Exactly. That's why "software engineering" will never have the equivalent of a PE. Terribly inconvenient to "move fast and break things" when you're obligated to give a shit about the collateral damage when something breaks.
      - livinginfear 6y ago
        This is not true at all. There are entire, large sections of the industry devoted to creating safety-critical software. These areas of the industry are well disciplined and highly regulated. This software is designed in such a way to make collateral damage impossible in all but the most exceptional scenarios. This popular silly web programming stuff is truly only the tip of the software engineering iceberg.
        kjs3 6y ago
        No, it's completely true. There are relatively tiny, quite niche sections of the industry devoted to creating safety-critical software in a systematic, engineered manner. I've been part of it. My company has more people writing Java/Cobol business apps than all of NASA has writing true high-reliability code. Even then, while folks writing mission critical code might be 'disciplined', there is no equivalent of the NSPE regulating what someone needs to know to do this, no universally agreed upon standards for what constitutes "safety-critical" or even consensus metrics for how to assess whether something is or not. There are literally hundreds of different guidelines for "how to engineer safe software", but no canonical guide. Even stuff like "can you use C to write software 'in such a way to make collateral damage impossible in all but the most exceptional scenarios'" is a matter of furious debate; some say yes, some say no.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  There's nothing to subscribe to, no actual service being provided at the operational level. It's a financing scheme similar to a leasing arrangement; the only internet check here is whether your payments are up to date. Imagine a helmet that you paid for in installments, but that lost its structural integrity if you fell behind.
  - squarefoot 6y ago
    Or an alarm system that left your house open for the same reason.
  - dahart 6y ago
    Yes, it's a financing plan. Their web page says so plainly. Unlike your mortgage, if you fail to pay, you get to keep the vest and restart the payment plan. When you pay for a helmet in installments and stop paying, it's worse than losing structural integrity; a collector comes to take the helmet away and you have no helmet.
    - hluska 6y ago
      There’s a difference. If a collector comes and takes my helmet, I won’t get on a bike without it because I’m a stickler for keeping my brain inside my skull. If there is a bug anywhere between the global payment system and this product, I may not even know.
      - dahart 6y ago
        > If there is a bug anywhere between the global payment system and this product, I may not even know. Why are you speculating about this and suggesting it will operate in a way that directly contradicts their documentation? It states clearly that the system has to be turned on and will reach "ride ready state". This means that you will know whether it's functioning before you ride, even if there is a bug in their payment system.
        Swenrekcah 6y ago
- randcraw 6y ago
  I start my bikes and cars inside a garage where there's limited RF signal due to no line of sight to towers. If this thing fails to initiate service correctly, the maker of this product will be in for a world of hurt after my heirs sue them into the ground for failing to deliver their service. Air bag makers like Takata know the high cost of poorly designed airbags all too well. Inviting [b|m]illions in liability through a service model that requires a successful login before every use is nuts. Login failure could also happen inside a parking garage w/o signal, or in a large city where RF shadows from tall buildings block signal, or in a woods that's too far from cellular towers to receive a signal, or it could fail on restart after the engine stalls on the road. I wonder if the maker will choose not to sell their product in the US where personal injury attorneys are probably already licking their lips. This service model may make sense on a racetrack, but not so much in the real world.
- hluska 6y ago
  So if Klim’s security/build/release processes are imperfect, I’ll die?? I’m going to pass. This is fucking insane.
anigbrowl 6y ago
I don't think they 'made a mistake'. They just realized that they wouldn't sell many at $800, and that they'd probably make more by appearing the cut the price and flogging a subscription model. Unfortunately for them they hired a comms director who comes off as a sociopath and thinks hostage taking is a reasonable business model.
nosianu 6y ago
Worse, even if you agree, missing payments without noticing it is easy. You might get your life saver disabled even though you have plenty of money and are willing to pay and think you set everything up. For example, it works for a while, then you overdraw one of your accounts because a transfer is late (you still have plenty of money overall), the bank stops the payment from that account. Even if they don't disable right away, add a few more delays. I had an address change once and they sent the notice for a missed payment to the old address of my business - so I only noticed it when the service was cut off. The bill also had been sent there so I never knew I had to pay. Do you want to say "tough luck" to customers who rely on the protection and miss a payment only because of bad luck? Is even forgetfulness (so 100% "their own fault") worth a potential death sentence? . Note that the address change issue also once happened to me after I had already informed the other party of my new address. It was the IRS, they still sent their requests to my old address, months later, and then got a court order to get the money from my bank account without my knowledge or consent. I never knew they had wanted something from me, and I had given them the new address. So it can happen even if you do everything right.
foxyv 6y ago
A determined commuter can ride bicycles/motorcycles on ice just fine with the right equipment. Just need tire studs and some good winter tires. They do it in Netherlands and northern Europe all the time. https://www.amazon.com/Estink-Anti-Slip-Chains-Spikes-Motorcycle/dp/B077PBGLKD https://www.amazon.com/Estink-Anti-Slip-Chains-Spikes-Motorc... https://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Spiker-Studded-Mountain-Bicycle/dp/B00NZ73Q9C/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=studded+bicycle+snow+tires&qid=1620310451&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Spiker-Studded-Mountain-Bicy...

dharmab 6y ago

Note that you have the option of purchasing the vest outright, and there's also a purchase option if you subscribe for 3 years, similar to a lease. In conclusion, buy a Helite Turtle. Fully offline, no electronics, and user-refillable with simple CO2 cartridges. Fortnine did a great video surverying motorcycle airbag tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2jZryt607U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2jZryt607U

nexuist 6y ago
No electronics? How does it detect crashes?
- dharmab 6y ago
  It uses a calibrated tether from the rider to the bike. If the tether detaches, a valve is opened that inflates the vest. The tether is strong enough that it won't activate by accident but weak enough to activate in a get-off crash.
kristofferR 6y ago
The Helite e-Turtle is probably a better choice for those who aren't trying to save money. You still get the same great west with user-refillable cartridges, just a quicker response and no tether. The only downside (apart from the increased cost) is the charging process. The fork sensor is also really neat. Regardless of if you go for a tether-Turtle or a e-Turtle though, it's a vastly better west than the one this article talks about. Nevermind the horrific subscription model, it also provides way less protection than a Turtle (which inflates and limits head/neck movement, vital in a crash).
- JulDav 5y ago
  You can go for one time payment if you don't like to pay monthly, inflation time 3 times faster => vital for a collision, by the highest experience and proven real crashes situations
- JulDav 5y ago
  In&motion as, by far; much more experience in smart systems (MotoGP, Dakar Rally, Ski Racing) and they work with 7 recognized brands and they have offices in the US and Europe.

offtop5 6y ago

Why isn't this illegal ? You can forget to update your credit card number and end up dieing ?

dharmab 6y ago
Motorcycle safety gear is almost unregulated in the US. The one regulation (The DOT helmet standard) is an absolute joke. I can legally ride my Suzuki motorcycle, which has a fully custom exhaust, an ultrabright LED floodlight and zero safety features, wearing no safety gear except eyeglasses in my state. (I built it as a dirt bike juuust legal enough to ride to the trailhead.)
- deelowe 6y ago
  This is a much lager scope problem than motorcycle safety.

northwest65 6y ago

When I pick a new helmet, I pick from brands that have spent years earning my trust. This I will never buy; I just can't deal with a company that from the outset feels grubby.

infoseek12 6y ago
I think my favorite quote from the article is: “If they then choose to ignore the indicators and ride with the In&box inactive, that's on them and we can expect it not to inflate in the event of a crash.” When their product doesn’t work, one of their customers dies, and they need to explain to the deceased children why their dads not coming home; I wonder how convincing the “that’s on them” explanation will be.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  The price of life is apparently on the order of $50 or so.
totalZero 6y ago
Klim makes good gear. I have only heard positive things about the company prior to seeing this article.

api_or_ipa 6y ago

So... this thing phones home to activate every time you jump on your motorcycle? I would absolutely love to be the lawyer who's client sustained life threatening injuries because your server was temporarily down precisely when it needed to verify DRM on a motorcycle airbag.

bellyfullofbac 6y ago
Hah... what if I go on a multi-day ride in an area with no cell coverage? Or in a foreign country where I don't want to activate maybe-expensive data roaming on my phone? Maybe their "Click here to accept" EULA has a clause that you need Internet connectivity at least once a day as well? If the schmairbag has a fail-active functionality, then the hack would be to install their app on a disconnected phone. "I can't contact my stupid-ass rent-seeking makers right now, so I guess I'll keep the airbag functioning".
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
TFA isn't specific but it looks like you have to use an app to turn it on before you ride and the app is the mechanism by which the phone home happens.
- g_p 6y ago
  Sounds like that's a nice route to forcibly obsolete this well before the end of its usable life by turning off the API servers and saying "it's for your own safety... We have a better newer device now available for only $800 (plus subscription)". Also a nice single point of failure if you can hijack their DNS and deny every activation request (!)

falcolas 6y ago

Imagine a car which won't activate the airbags (or emergency braking sensors, or ABS, or...) if you get in a crash while you're behind on a payment. Scummy. Remember, "entrepreneurs," you can't collect debts from the poor dead (who don't have estates to collect against)

josefresco 6y ago
Imagine selling a car airbag system separate from the car.
- dharmab 6y ago
  Kind of hard to put an airbag on a bike. Honda tried with the Gold Wing. It only worked to prevent an over-the-bars crash. Didn't help in common lowside and highside crashes. Plus most bikes don't have any room for an airbag anyway, as anyone who's had to work on a cramped modern bike can attest to.
- olyjohn 6y ago
  Would be pretty sweet. We could retrofit older cars with some modern safety features... but the problem is that they have to be integrated into the design of the car. The airbag can't be too close or too far away, or hit you from the wrong angle.. or else it could end up killing you. Also airbags for cars are designed to keep you from smashing your body into the interior of the car. Airbags for riders are to keep you from smashing into the ground or other objects. I think it's pretty rare that colliding with the bike itself happens. That's why bikes don't have airbags on them.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Would be pretty easy to integrate airbags into old cars. Measure minimum distance from seat back to steering wheel and then configure airbag based on that (probably remove jumpers or something to control detonation). Sensor locations are pretty standard and modern airbags and computers are fast enough that you don't need to use crumple zones as a hack to buy time for the bag to go off before the occupant starts moving toward the space the bag will be in.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

Someone is going to die from this. Then these guys are going to get sued for every dime they have.

riffic 6y ago
ctrl-F, "sued", upvote. My thoughts exactly. this is awful.
dylan604 6y ago
Maybe, but you know they have had lawyers involved. I'm guessing that there is a legal agreement somewhere that stipulates this will happen so that the lawyers have covered their backsides. Since it involves downloading an app, it'll probably be a section in the EULA that everyone read before checking that "I Agree" box. right?
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Even if there is such language in the EULA, courts sometimes rule that such language is not legally binding. Sometimes the courts use words like "unconscionable". IANAL, but I sure think that word fits...
  - dylan604 6y ago
    My personal favorite is "no reasonable person". I want to use "no reasonable person" will read the EULA and does not actually agree to what the provider is wishing them to agree.
cuddlybacon 6y ago
I doubt it. Besides the EULA that has already been mentioned, the standard equipment is a padded jacket with abrasion resistant fabric. They could probably argue that their product is adding protection above current standards, and a deactivated vest would merely reduce the rider back to the safety level considered standard. I dislike a subscription based airbag vest, but I really don't think they'll get sued over that.

jowsie 6y ago

If you're in the market for a Motorcycle Airbag, this is worth a watch. https://youtu.be/N2jZryt607U https://youtu.be/N2jZryt607U If you don't wanna watch, the Helite Turtle range seem to be the best way to go.

tyrex2017 6y ago
thank you!

hprotagonist 6y ago

the CO2 leash style ones are better for most people anyway. Unless you're spending a LOT of time on the track, you want this: https://www.hit-air.com/en/motorcycle/ https://www.hit-air.com/en/motorcycle/ which i prefer over the helite because it has an even more aggressive cervical collar. I'm very comfortable with my Aerostitch as an overall protective garment, but I really want a neck collar too. That this is more or less a RADiKS Kourier onesie is not coincidental.

xg15 6y ago

I'm pretty sure this is illegal at least in Germany. Also: > at some point, if a person stops paying for a service, that service has to be suspended What the fuck is the "service" here? If the whole point of IoT was at the end that you can now declare "not actively making things worse" a service and have a working business model, I think we can now officially declare this trend a net negative on living quality.

r00fus 6y ago
It's not like IoT was destined for anything else as long as businesses are allowed (nay, rewarded) to pull that kind of shit.
- bhupy 6y ago
  > nay, rewarded Really? I see a low hanging fruit opportunity to get rich: manufacture and sell the same motorcycle vest and sell it at an upfront cost equal to some approximate amortization of monthly payments over some average LTV. As a motorcycle rider, I currently have like 10+ different options for motorcycle jackets.
  - vr46 6y ago
    Also as a motorcycle rider, the whole notion of life-saving protection and safety being a "service" suggests that the thing is too complicated to work 100% of the time, with no fail-safe option, and therefore cannot be trusted at any cost. Protective devices need 100% uptime.
    - bhupy 6y ago
      Agreed, it doesn't seem like this would even need to be a "service", at least in the sense that the core functionality of "inflating" can entirely be serviced offline/locally on the jacket. There's so much wrong with the implementation here, and it looks like a bright flashing opportunity for someone to provide a simpler/saner/cheaper alternative and make a quick buck.

mcguire 6y ago

A general question: what evidence is there that airbag vests help?

samatman 6y ago
Is this something we need evidence for? A question I would understand is something like "is there a good study on how much an airbag vest helps?". But especially the kind with cervical stabilization, it's pretty much guaranteed to provide some protection. There will be some situations where the rider is injured instead of dead, or bruised instead of injured. RCTs aren't science, we're allowed to reason on the basis of readily-apparent empirical facts.
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  Is this something we need evidence for? Wow. When is the answer to this question not "Yes"?
  - samatman 6y ago
    All the time? Is water wet? Is the grass green? If you're hungry, will eating food relieve hunger? Are you better off falling off a motorbike wearing a jacket or nothing? Ok, how about a blow-up cervical collar?
    - CamperBob2 6y ago
      My guess is, you're either too young to remember what happened when automobile airbags first began to appear, or you just weren't paying attention. Hint: the current recommendation to place children in the rear seats came about as the result of more than a few children being injured or killed by airbags. It transpires that when you use explosives to solve a problem, the unintended consequences can take a while to work out.
sudosysgen 6y ago
A lot less injuries in MotoGP for starters.

grayhatter 6y ago

The part that gets me, someone wrote this code. Someone was asked to disable a safety device if someone didn't pay, and some software engineer agreed, and then actually wrote that line of code. How could someone willingly agree to that? if (user.last_pmt_date < today - 30daysago) { disable_life_saving_equipment(); }

yrgulation 6y ago
Mortgage, bonus, performance reviews and others that make us do things we wish we hadn't. A sad state of affairs.
- grayhatter 6y ago
  How does someone get to a point where they're willing to hurt someone over money? I understand desperation, life or death. Which I don't believe this is. The simple reason is, indifference. Which I can't wrap my head around. How do you have the ability and knowledge to write software that does this... and still do this?
  - toyg 6y ago
    Ah but you’re not hurting them, you’re “just” turning the other way as they get hurt. You can then justify your behavior with some “personal responsibility” mantra (they should have paid their debts! They should have paid upfront! They should have tried harder to be rich!).
rutierut 6y ago
it sounds more like: // start up device if (user.last_pmt_date < today - 30daysago) return "please pay us" but yhea
function_seven 6y ago
I would refactor that line of code to ease my conscience: if (user.subscription.is_current()) { add_value(); } Of course, add_value() then enables the technology. And I'm not "disabling" anything, merely adding value when appropriate!

FpUser 6y ago

I think they're up for a big trouble as soon as somebody dies / gets injured and the lawsuit comes. And in this case I wish they get punished to oblivion. Something in this way of selling does not add up in my brain from the ethics point of view.

pcl 6y ago

I think I’d be more ok with this if you couldn’t actually put the vest on when it’s been bricked. I understand the allure of the subscription model, but if I put on a piece of safety equipment, I think I should be able to expect it to work.

yowlingcat 6y ago

Serious question: how likely is this to stand up to regulatory scrutiny? Given that they seem to be incorporated in the US and the EU, if a rider dies because the vest didn't inflate and, say, their family sues the company, is the company likely to fold into oblivion so no one tries this dumb stunt again? If I remember correctly, this was what led to auto safety features in the first place (IE Nader's Unsafe At Any Speed).

heavyset_go 6y ago
In the US, the regulatory car is on fire and there's no driver at the wheel.
dharmab 5y ago
LOL there's barely any regulation of motorcycle safety in the US. ABS brakes aren't even mandated here. Pretty much the only regulation is the laughably bad DOT helmet standard. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY). Every rider I know who wears a helmet, buys an ECE or Snell helmet instead.

kjs3 6y ago

Survival as a Service. Nice. FWIW...This is pretty much a great way to get sued senseless in case you think this is a great business model. The minute someone dies wearing a switched off vest, an army of PI lawyers will be foaming at the mouth to get "why did this person die because they were late on a payment" in front of a jury. Edit: In the US at least, your jurisdictional mileage may vary.

AlexandrB 6y ago

What worries me more is all the complex interactions required to make this work. The ability to remotely disable a safety system due to non-payment means that all the components in the payment chain are now potentially safety-critical. I wonder how Apple/Google pay engineers feel about that. Edit: And this may remain true even if the rider chooses the one-time payment option. Depending on implementation, bugs, etc.

dahart 6y ago

This is a little bit of click-bait, and the incredulity and pitchforks are over-reacting. The title & article were designed to stoke fears. It's a payment plan, just like anything else we finance, houses, cars, motorcycles. Failure to pay normally means you lose the thing outright, at least in this case you keep the vest and have the option to resume the payment plan. They explain clearly that you won't accidentally die, because it will be obvious when you put it on and try to turn on the power. Notice that the advantages of their financing plan actually address a bunch of things that people complain about wrt software subscriptions: - Spread out the spending - Make the initial price cheaper - Stop payments when not in use (!) - Upgrades over time - Buyout option after three years In terms of rent-seeking subscription models, this one is way better than most of the stuff on the internet, I hope more subscriptions take note of this kind of pricing. And it's making a motorcycle airbag more accessible to riders, that's a good thing too.

bhupy 6y ago
I don't necessarily disagree with your perspective here, it makes sense. That being said, with payment plans, there's typically some notion of an interest rate. If you miss a payment, you "just" owe the compounding interest (eventually). Typically, rates are regulated, and even when it's not regulated, usury is highly frowned upon. Taking your analogy to its conclusion, the "interest rate" for nonpayment here could potentially be outright death when the thing in question stops working. It's hard to put a dollar value on a human life, but that's a hell of an interest rate!
- dahart 6y ago
  It doesn't stop working while you're riding, that's just hyperbole stirred up by this headline. This is not a safety issue, nor is this unreasonable "usury". Just like any financing plan in existence, the interest rate here is that the total cost of ownership is higher on the payment plan than on the alternative pay-up-front plan they offer. The benefit of the payment plan is you can start for less money. The unusual feature of this payment plan compared to your house, car, or credit cards is you get to pause and/or cancel it with no penalties.

motohagiography 6y ago

Now do insulin...ah, too late.

thebruce87m 6y ago

I wonder how long the subscribe process is. If it’s measured in milliseconds you could use an accelerometer to detect an impact and subscribe mid-crash. JIT airbagging.

Workaccount2 6y ago
High frequency trading tech finds a new field.
toyg 6y ago
You have to factor in phone connection, which can take a while - or not work at all, if you’re sufficiently remote… which I’m sure never happens when you’re riding a motorbike for fun /s
- thebruce87m 6y ago
  I would also recommend crashing close to the server to keep latency down too.

MengerSponge 6y ago

This is wild. It's the most Snow Crash nonsense I've ever seen.

tyrex2017 6y ago

Maybe they say this to incentivize subscribers to continue paying Meanwhile, it will work always anyway. Thats how I would build it

livinginfear 6y ago

As vile as this is, at least you can buy it outright. That puts it so far ahead of nearly the entire predatory SaaS ecosystem. I use Photoshop and Illustrator once a month. Still, for some strange reason I overpay to keep up an Adobe Creative Cloud subscription. Ideally I'd vote with my wallet and stop paying companies with such anti-consumer practices.

sideshowb 6y ago
But if you buy outright does your product still need to contact the server to verify you bought it outright?

akomtu 6y ago

Well, IoT is just an amplifier and enabler of the rich people's desires. If they were good, their goodness would radiate thru this new IoT channel, but our society is still immature, it promotes sociopaths to the top and so their greed and evilness floods over the IoT gates.

t-writescode 6y ago

How can I trust that something like this has gone through the appropriate, rigorous level of critical systems testing to keep me alive if it's using a phone-home, bluetooth app to make logic decisions?

g_p 6y ago
Don't forget their secure boot measures on the onboard microcontroller, to stop malware or a rogue Bluetooth device doing an OTA DFU update to swap around the GPIO pins to indicate "activated" and not actually arm the system... Some kinds of devices just shouldn't be connected - they should be sold and bought as-is, and function independently of outside factors, as they are safety devices.
dharmab 6y ago
Oh man, wait until you find out about motorcycle helmets! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUyp3HX8cY
- t-writescode 6y ago
  This is completely different. A helmet is a piece of physical equipment that uses the physical properties of its ingredients and the structure of that equipment to operate. There is no logic in a helmet that impacts its safety feature. This is a jacket that can, in software, decide to not do what it's designed to do.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  This is the second FortNine link I've come across in this thread and, even though I have less than zero interest in anything related to motorcycles, the channel is awesome! Surprisingly interest content.
heavyset_go 6y ago
I want to know the engineers' names that signed off on this design.

SergeAx 6y ago

Fire extinguishers are next.

trainsplanes 6y ago

We’re rapidly approaching an Ubik-like future where every object demands payment before use. Maybe the idea of paying to open a fridge or unlock a door wasn’t just a silly sci-fi concept—maybe the wrong person just hasn’t considered doing such a thing yet.

dsr_ 6y ago

No hacker will ever remotely de-activate the vest. Except the hackers working at Klim, I suppose.

graiz 6y ago

If the product is too expensive they should sell it with an optional payment plan with Affirm or a similar company that acts like a credit card with the hardware fully paid upfront. This is what Peleton uses... Tying payment to safety functionality is just waiting for a lawsuit.

ericol 6y ago

I think we're starting to see the beginning of LAAS (Life as a Service)/s This is getting utterly ridiculous.

123123as1asd12 6y ago

tbh if you're missing payments of $12 a month for your safety device, You should not be out having fun. you should be working.

Fuzzeh 6y ago
I ride to work.
dharmab 5y ago
While the majority of motorcycles in the US are recreational, there are many of us who use them as our primary commuter vehicle. Outside of the US, this is much more common, especially in Asia.

jacquesm 6y ago

Any kind of grafted on service should be rejected. If a safety device requires an internet connection to work at all it should not pass first base but be rejected outright. After all, it might be some other bug or issue that causes you to lose your life or health.

liendolucas 6y ago

They deserve to go bankrupt. For sure you can get for 800 bucks a more than decent motorcycle protective jacket than this joke.

dreamcompiler 6y ago

There's not a jury in the world that would not pave this company flat when the first death occurs because the rider missed a payment. (Or more likely because the rider kept up with the payments but the Internet-of-Shit software screwed up.)

Dan_JiuJitsu 6y ago

Um no. This absolutely precludes purchasing this shit.

awhitby 6y ago

I agree this feels pretty questionable, but if you take that view, you should ask yourself how you feel about the Garmin inReach Mini [1] (and possibly other devices in that family). It's an emergency satellite SOS device for outdoor recreation, with a monthly subscription option—and many features beyond pure SOS. When the subscription is suspended though, the SOS functionality will not work (unlike, say, a cellphone). And yet it is—from my observation—an incredibly popular device, and I would bet that the start/stop monthly plan is the most popular (it's the one I use). Obvious one difference is that here you get something for your monthly subscription (maintenance of the Iridium network, an emergency response center, etc). But given the incredibly low rate of people pushing the SOS button, the relatively low cost of that happening (it's not like they actually mount the search and rescue, they just pass on a message), and the incredibly high benefits, how different is it really? [1] https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/592606 https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/592606

g_p 6y ago

Has there been any suggestion as to what happens when the company behind this inevitably goes bankrupt (all companies will eventually fail) or is "acquired" and scuttled? Or they cease to desire to provide the API backend for the mobile app? It strikes me safety critical equipment is the one time when we don't want any kind of dependency on an external hosted service. As it stands right now, it seems like even a fully paid-up, owned outright version could cease to function if they lost control of their domain name? Am I correct in my understanding this product is tied to your phone to "call home" and validate its state? If so, doesn't that mean it's unusable without your phone being working, charged, non-stolen and non-broken? And the same for their servers. So you could in theory go on a journey protected, stop for a break, and find you can't continue your journey protected as you're out of signal, or something has broken? This feels like a good opportunity for a government to take a stance on safety products. At the very least they'll reduce the amount of eWaste when these stop working before the end of their useful life.

stuaxo 6y ago

This sounds like corporate manslaughter.

Fuzzeh 6y ago

Looking at this in a bit more detail. Any aibag using the In&Motion controller suffers from the same fate. Furygan, RST etc.

bokohut 5y ago

I have several quips on this, some dry and most morbid unfortunately, as there is no other way but the truth to paint it. I am really looking forward to the day when medical device manufactures realize the profit opportunities from this technique by adding "features". Can anyone here provide a better reason than to always put one's health first? 1) The rich get richer, they also live longer too. 2) Please have finance work with data analysis on subscriptions to run a report against the master death file as we need to purge those who will no longer be paying. Data storage costs money and we do not need to keep rotting data. 3) Please contact the CEO, the CLO and the board. Let them know we are forwarding a voicemail we just received. The system architects designed the MVP based on first and last name for unique identification instead of a proper Uuid in the system. Time didn't allow us to refactor based on management pressures so when a customer, John Smith, failed to pay the system disabled every John Smith vest. A John Smith in good financial standing was killed last week and his widow just called and had her lawyer on the phone - she made some very impactful statements. Please consider this my two weeks notice as well.

trowa159 5y ago

hahahahaha, pay up or die. best business idea everrr