6 ms·

It's upgradable (you can get more storage or more ram), repairable (you can take it apart and add more storage or more ram and not void a warranty or need a mas

It's upgradable (you can get more storage or more ram), repairable (you can take it apart and add more storage or more ram and not void a warranty or need a masters degree in electrical engineering), and it's 100% yours (you can do what ever you want to it).

0xffff2 5y ago
And how is that different from my Thinkpad?
- dubcanada 5y ago
  To be honest, nothing. I guess this target audience is more of the "nice looking (looks like a macbook), portable, slim, lightweight, upgradable" target audience. Then the "I already have a upgradable/repairable" laptop audience. Apparently it's modular, but all desktops are "modular", and a fair amount of laptops are "modular" so it's a fairly meaningless word.
  - nrp 5y ago
    We really did build this in part as a reaction to the historically modular and repairable notebooks becoming decreasingly so. Even the former standard-bearer for upgradeability, the ThinkPad T4xx (now T14) series no longer has two SO-DIMM sockets. We then took that a few steps further by making the mainboard upgradeable, adding an Expansion Card system for port customization, and enabling personalization through color-customizable bezels and keyboard language selection.
- input_sh 5y ago
  Well for one, you can swap out the port configuration, though I don't see myself using that. I much prefer connecting one Type C hub than plugging in like six cables to my laptop directly, so I don't really mind laptops with a small amount of I/Os.
- jmcz 5y ago
  The difference is that the Framework laptop is repairable. https://community.frame.work/t/the-myth-of-the-repairable-thinkpad/950 https://community.frame.work/t/the-myth-of-the-repairable-th... Having worked at a computer repair shop, I can say this will be, by a very large margin, the most repairable laptop in the market. Most defects experienced by laptop users (especially the non-Apple gang) will render the PC a total loss.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - rxhernandez 5y ago
    X1 carbons aren't exactly known for being the most repairable thinkpads. My new P15 still has a modular gpu and, IIRC, has easy access to most components by removing the back cover.
    - CarelessExpert 5y ago
      And Thinkpads are a) pretty unique in how repairable they are, and b) seen by the public as enterprise workhorses and not sexy or exciting. I personally have an X1C5. I absolutely love it. Best laptop I've ever owned. But I'm still very curious about this thing as it feels like a whole next level in terms of how modular and easy it is to repair while still being lightweight, powerful, and capable.
    - organsnyder 5y ago
      I agree that it's an unfair comparison. X1 Carbon (really, the whole X-series) is the line designed to appeal to those that want thinness and weight reduction at all costs. My T- and P-series machines are very repairable.
      - 3np 5y ago
        Really, how recent is your newest one? The T-series (I’ve owned roughly every other generation since T420) have gotten increasingly less repairable with each release since at least the T430. I was always a fan/happy user, but after the T480(s) I won’t be buying a new Thinkpad anymore. The DRM in the batteries, only one RAM slot, the removal of some port in every new generation... Even the non-carbon ones have the writing on the wall.
- foodstances 5y ago
  Your ThinkPad from 10 years ago or a modern ThinkPad that has soldered on RAM and WiFi chip and an ever-decreasing profile that makes it harder to replace individual components?
kitsunesoba 5y ago
Also theoretically a standardized mainboard design that will allow you to upgrade the CPU + chipset at some point down the road, but of course this is contingent on Framework following through.
- jandrese 5y ago
  Something like "ATX for laptops" is long overdue IMHO. Specify the exact dimensions of the board, mounting holes, power hookup, location of the CPU (for cooling configuration), video connector spec, even a side panel that fits into a cutout on the case. You could separate the screen and keyboard purchase from the motherboard purchase. And honestly, I have a lot of old laptops with perfectly usable screens and keyboards that are gathering dust because the CPU is hopelessly obsolete. Had they been built like this I could have significantly cut back on e-waste and saved money on the upgrade. You could even have enterprising people building thin clients or dumb terminals out of them. Having a unified spec would enable a lot of niche products. Imagine a Raspberry Pi board that you stuff the Pi into that has the right hookups for a standard laptop case for example. There would be a whole industry for cheapo SBCs that you can stuff in a used laptop case to make an ultra-cheap web browsing machine.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    > And honestly, I have a lot of old laptops with perfectly usable screens and keyboards that are gathering dust because the CPU is hopelessly obsolete. Yep. I have a ~2008 15.4" Dell laptop with a 1920x1200 screen that's pretty decent even by modern standards and tons of ports that'd be a perfectly serviceable (if a bit bulky) if it could be outfitted with a modern 15-30W TDP CPU to cut down on heat and boost battery life to something more reasonable.
- nrp 5y ago
  That is right! We're committed to offering upgrade mainboards. We follow CPU roadmaps closely and keep in contact with the companies you would expect to be necessary for that.
fsflover 5y ago
> and it's 100% yours (you can do what ever you want to it) Does it run 100% free software? Will it be certified with "Respects Your Freedom" certification by the FSF?
- wmf 5y ago
  AFAIK it's impossible for any recent x86 system to meet RYF.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    So it's not "100% mine". At least it's possible to run an FSF-certified OS [0], and disable and neutralize the Intel ME [1]. [0] https://puri.sm/posts/why-fsf-endorsing-pureos-matters/ https://puri.sm/posts/why-fsf-endorsing-pureos-matters/ [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/purism-disables-intel-me-librem,35741.html https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/purism-disables-intel-m... Will it be possible on Framework?
- ekianjo 5y ago
  Funny they say it's 100% yours and the only OS they provide is... Windows! It would be better to at least provide a Linux default image as well.
  - nrp 5y ago
    The Framework Laptop DIY Edition comes with no OS installed, so you can bring your own. We're working with a couple of popular distributions on compatibility checks and updates. The pre-built Framework Laptops do come with Windows 10, though you can install anything you'd like too.
    - andreareina 5y ago
      Is this going to happen before the preorders open? I love the concept and if it had anything approaching System76's first-class support of linux that would make a strong offering that much better. I don't mean going so far as to bankroll a whole new distro, "just" things actually working right. While you're here, are there any new answers to your conversation with Luis Rossmann[1] WRT availability of schematics? I love what you guys are trying to do and hope you succeed in a big way! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMZp8ErTTuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMZp8ErTTuk
jandrese 5y ago
Are there really not laptops anymore with SODIMM memory and discrete M.2 ports for both storage and WiFi? That seems like pretty basic features for anything that isn't trying to be ultra-thin and light? AFAIK no notebook class CPU comes in a socketable form so I don't know how they plan to let the users upgrade it without a heat gun. Being able to swap out the battery is nice I guess. For that they mostly just have to go easy on the glue, in most laptops you can swap the battery as long as the glue isn't too difficult. It's something you might do once in a laptop's lifetime though. Can you swap the screen? That is one job that will always give you a headache. How about the keyboard? Maybe the power jack for that time you trip over the cable and rip the jack off of the board? None of this should be all that hard unless you're trying to make the whole thing less than 0.5cm thick.
- nrp 5y ago
  It's surprisingly, but there are exceedingly few 13-14" notebooks still in the market with socketed memory, and especially not with both channels socketed. The same goes for WiFi, though at least storage is still socketed on most notebooks other than Apple's. We enable CPU upgradeability through mainboard replacement. Since everything of value on the mainboard except for the CPU is socketed, the vast majority of the cost of the mainboard is the CPU itself. That makes the mainboard upgrade path pretty sensible. We have designed the panel to be replaceable without needing to replace the full lid assembly. It is fastened in behind a magnet-attach bezel (which is also color customizable). The keyboard is held in with fasteners to be replaceable as well. For the power jack, we actually do one better, and have made all of the ports Expansion Cards which can be hot swapped. This means you can choose the ports you want on the system and which side you want them on, and if you ever manage to damage a receptacle, you only need to replace the card instead of the mainboard! I agree that what we're doing shouldn't be that unusual, but it is!
  - bcrosby95 5y ago
    I like to buy repairable and upgradeable laptops as a matter of principle (system76). But realistically I replace my laptop every 2 years anyways for the extra CPU performance. Being able to upgrade just that part without replacing the whole thing sounds perfect for me. I really hope this is able to take off. As do you I'm sure, heh.

0xffff2 5y ago

And how is that different from my Thinkpad?

dubcanada 5y ago
To be honest, nothing. I guess this target audience is more of the "nice looking (looks like a macbook), portable, slim, lightweight, upgradable" target audience. Then the "I already have a upgradable/repairable" laptop audience. Apparently it's modular, but all desktops are "modular", and a fair amount of laptops are "modular" so it's a fairly meaningless word.
- nrp 5y ago
  We really did build this in part as a reaction to the historically modular and repairable notebooks becoming decreasingly so. Even the former standard-bearer for upgradeability, the ThinkPad T4xx (now T14) series no longer has two SO-DIMM sockets. We then took that a few steps further by making the mainboard upgradeable, adding an Expansion Card system for port customization, and enabling personalization through color-customizable bezels and keyboard language selection.
input_sh 5y ago
Well for one, you can swap out the port configuration, though I don't see myself using that. I much prefer connecting one Type C hub than plugging in like six cables to my laptop directly, so I don't really mind laptops with a small amount of I/Os.
jmcz 5y ago
The difference is that the Framework laptop is repairable. https://community.frame.work/t/the-myth-of-the-repairable-thinkpad/950 https://community.frame.work/t/the-myth-of-the-repairable-th... Having worked at a computer repair shop, I can say this will be, by a very large margin, the most repairable laptop in the market. Most defects experienced by laptop users (especially the non-Apple gang) will render the PC a total loss.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rxhernandez 5y ago
  X1 carbons aren't exactly known for being the most repairable thinkpads. My new P15 still has a modular gpu and, IIRC, has easy access to most components by removing the back cover.
  - CarelessExpert 5y ago
    And Thinkpads are a) pretty unique in how repairable they are, and b) seen by the public as enterprise workhorses and not sexy or exciting. I personally have an X1C5. I absolutely love it. Best laptop I've ever owned. But I'm still very curious about this thing as it feels like a whole next level in terms of how modular and easy it is to repair while still being lightweight, powerful, and capable.
  - organsnyder 5y ago
    I agree that it's an unfair comparison. X1 Carbon (really, the whole X-series) is the line designed to appeal to those that want thinness and weight reduction at all costs. My T- and P-series machines are very repairable.
    - 3np 5y ago
      Really, how recent is your newest one? The T-series (I’ve owned roughly every other generation since T420) have gotten increasingly less repairable with each release since at least the T430. I was always a fan/happy user, but after the T480(s) I won’t be buying a new Thinkpad anymore. The DRM in the batteries, only one RAM slot, the removal of some port in every new generation... Even the non-carbon ones have the writing on the wall.
foodstances 5y ago
Your ThinkPad from 10 years ago or a modern ThinkPad that has soldered on RAM and WiFi chip and an ever-decreasing profile that makes it harder to replace individual components?

kitsunesoba 5y ago

Also theoretically a standardized mainboard design that will allow you to upgrade the CPU + chipset at some point down the road, but of course this is contingent on Framework following through.

jandrese 5y ago
Something like "ATX for laptops" is long overdue IMHO. Specify the exact dimensions of the board, mounting holes, power hookup, location of the CPU (for cooling configuration), video connector spec, even a side panel that fits into a cutout on the case. You could separate the screen and keyboard purchase from the motherboard purchase. And honestly, I have a lot of old laptops with perfectly usable screens and keyboards that are gathering dust because the CPU is hopelessly obsolete. Had they been built like this I could have significantly cut back on e-waste and saved money on the upgrade. You could even have enterprising people building thin clients or dumb terminals out of them. Having a unified spec would enable a lot of niche products. Imagine a Raspberry Pi board that you stuff the Pi into that has the right hookups for a standard laptop case for example. There would be a whole industry for cheapo SBCs that you can stuff in a used laptop case to make an ultra-cheap web browsing machine.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  > And honestly, I have a lot of old laptops with perfectly usable screens and keyboards that are gathering dust because the CPU is hopelessly obsolete. Yep. I have a ~2008 15.4" Dell laptop with a 1920x1200 screen that's pretty decent even by modern standards and tons of ports that'd be a perfectly serviceable (if a bit bulky) if it could be outfitted with a modern 15-30W TDP CPU to cut down on heat and boost battery life to something more reasonable.
nrp 5y ago
That is right! We're committed to offering upgrade mainboards. We follow CPU roadmaps closely and keep in contact with the companies you would expect to be necessary for that.

fsflover 5y ago

> and it's 100% yours (you can do what ever you want to it) Does it run 100% free software? Will it be certified with "Respects Your Freedom" certification by the FSF?

wmf 5y ago
AFAIK it's impossible for any recent x86 system to meet RYF.
- fsflover 5y ago
  So it's not "100% mine". At least it's possible to run an FSF-certified OS [0], and disable and neutralize the Intel ME [1]. [0] https://puri.sm/posts/why-fsf-endorsing-pureos-matters/ https://puri.sm/posts/why-fsf-endorsing-pureos-matters/ [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/purism-disables-intel-me-librem,35741.html https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/purism-disables-intel-m... Will it be possible on Framework?
ekianjo 5y ago
Funny they say it's 100% yours and the only OS they provide is... Windows! It would be better to at least provide a Linux default image as well.
- nrp 5y ago
  The Framework Laptop DIY Edition comes with no OS installed, so you can bring your own. We're working with a couple of popular distributions on compatibility checks and updates. The pre-built Framework Laptops do come with Windows 10, though you can install anything you'd like too.
  - andreareina 5y ago
    Is this going to happen before the preorders open? I love the concept and if it had anything approaching System76's first-class support of linux that would make a strong offering that much better. I don't mean going so far as to bankroll a whole new distro, "just" things actually working right. While you're here, are there any new answers to your conversation with Luis Rossmann[1] WRT availability of schematics? I love what you guys are trying to do and hope you succeed in a big way! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMZp8ErTTuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMZp8ErTTuk

jandrese 5y ago

Are there really not laptops anymore with SODIMM memory and discrete M.2 ports for both storage and WiFi? That seems like pretty basic features for anything that isn't trying to be ultra-thin and light? AFAIK no notebook class CPU comes in a socketable form so I don't know how they plan to let the users upgrade it without a heat gun. Being able to swap out the battery is nice I guess. For that they mostly just have to go easy on the glue, in most laptops you can swap the battery as long as the glue isn't too difficult. It's something you might do once in a laptop's lifetime though. Can you swap the screen? That is one job that will always give you a headache. How about the keyboard? Maybe the power jack for that time you trip over the cable and rip the jack off of the board? None of this should be all that hard unless you're trying to make the whole thing less than 0.5cm thick.

nrp 5y ago
It's surprisingly, but there are exceedingly few 13-14" notebooks still in the market with socketed memory, and especially not with both channels socketed. The same goes for WiFi, though at least storage is still socketed on most notebooks other than Apple's. We enable CPU upgradeability through mainboard replacement. Since everything of value on the mainboard except for the CPU is socketed, the vast majority of the cost of the mainboard is the CPU itself. That makes the mainboard upgrade path pretty sensible. We have designed the panel to be replaceable without needing to replace the full lid assembly. It is fastened in behind a magnet-attach bezel (which is also color customizable). The keyboard is held in with fasteners to be replaceable as well. For the power jack, we actually do one better, and have made all of the ports Expansion Cards which can be hot swapped. This means you can choose the ports you want on the system and which side you want them on, and if you ever manage to damage a receptacle, you only need to replace the card instead of the mainboard! I agree that what we're doing shouldn't be that unusual, but it is!
- bcrosby95 5y ago
  I like to buy repairable and upgradeable laptops as a matter of principle (system76). But realistically I replace my laptop every 2 years anyways for the extra CPU performance. Being able to upgrade just that part without replacing the whole thing sounds perfect for me. I really hope this is able to take off. As do you I'm sure, heh.