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> It's bad for everybody when professionals work "for publicity" or are encouraged to do so It's important that we not allow our moral judgments to interfere w

> It's bad for everybody when professionals work "for publicity" or are encouraged to do so It's important that we not allow our moral judgments to interfere with the facts. This is obviously false.

hluska 5y ago
No, it's really not. Community minded artists refuse to discount their work because discounting their work cuts out the market for young up and coming artists. Creative communities have been making these decisions for longer than I have even owned a computer.
Veen 5y ago
It’s bad for other professionals because it creates expectations that people will work for free and it reduces the amount other professionals can earn. That’s why it generates negative reactions and shaming in those communities. In the short term, that’s good for whoever gets a free service. In the long run, it’s not great for sustaining a population with a valuable expertise.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  They're not working for free though. If you are a wedding photographer the value in saying "I did all the photographs for season X of <stupid but very popular wedding show>" has huge monetary value. If the supply/demand economics were such that you still had to pay them $stipend/minimum wage/premium this would still be the case. Photographers are free to accept in-kind payment or not.
  - babelfish 5y ago
    You can't pay rent with that.
- ghaff 5y ago
  So is it bad for developers to work on open source projects on GitHub in their free time? After all, by that logic doing so reduces the amount that other developers can earn. And should a consultant not be able to maintain a blog that people don't pay for because doing so competes with freelancers?
  - happytoexplain 5y ago
    Working on open source does not create as much of an expectation that you work for free by request on other projects, nor does blogging. We may argue about why this is the case, but it's moot. Analogies are blunt tools that only result in back-and-forths about the differences between the original case and the proposed cases. If you think a tendency for creatives to work for free does not increase the tendency of businesses to request that creatives work for free, then make that argument directly, rather than pointing to something different.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      >If you think a tendency for creatives to work for free does not increase the tendency of businesses to request that creatives work for free, then make that argument directly, rather than pointing to something different. I think it absolutely does increase that tendency. When I write for online tech publications, at some level, my writing, for which I'm not paid, takes money out of some freelancer's pocket--all other things being equal (which of course they aren't). And all the people who speak at events for free and even cover their own travel (or their companies do) definitely make it harder for qualified people who would prefer to be paid to do so. But, to be blunt, I don't care. If it's in my personal interest to do those things for free, I'm not going to choose to abstain because of some microscopic impact on the labor market. In this photographer case, I actually don't think there's much of an impact. Someone mentioned Super Bowl performers performing for free. I doubt anyone thinks Lady Gaga is going to start giving gratis concerts all over the place. There has been a major impact on photography as a profession but that's more about the proliferation of free, cheap, and easily obtained amateur photos.

> It's bad for everybody when professionals work "for publicity" or are encouraged to do so It's important that we not allow our moral judgments to interfere with the facts. This is obviously false.

hluska 5y ago

No, it's really not. Community minded artists refuse to discount their work because discounting their work cuts out the market for young up and coming artists. Creative communities have been making these decisions for longer than I have even owned a computer.

Veen 5y ago

It’s bad for other professionals because it creates expectations that people will work for free and it reduces the amount other professionals can earn. That’s why it generates negative reactions and shaming in those communities. In the short term, that’s good for whoever gets a free service. In the long run, it’s not great for sustaining a population with a valuable expertise.

skeeter2020 5y ago
They're not working for free though. If you are a wedding photographer the value in saying "I did all the photographs for season X of <stupid but very popular wedding show>" has huge monetary value. If the supply/demand economics were such that you still had to pay them $stipend/minimum wage/premium this would still be the case. Photographers are free to accept in-kind payment or not.
- babelfish 5y ago
  You can't pay rent with that.
ghaff 5y ago
So is it bad for developers to work on open source projects on GitHub in their free time? After all, by that logic doing so reduces the amount that other developers can earn. And should a consultant not be able to maintain a blog that people don't pay for because doing so competes with freelancers?
- happytoexplain 5y ago
  Working on open source does not create as much of an expectation that you work for free by request on other projects, nor does blogging. We may argue about why this is the case, but it's moot. Analogies are blunt tools that only result in back-and-forths about the differences between the original case and the proposed cases. If you think a tendency for creatives to work for free does not increase the tendency of businesses to request that creatives work for free, then make that argument directly, rather than pointing to something different.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    >If you think a tendency for creatives to work for free does not increase the tendency of businesses to request that creatives work for free, then make that argument directly, rather than pointing to something different. I think it absolutely does increase that tendency. When I write for online tech publications, at some level, my writing, for which I'm not paid, takes money out of some freelancer's pocket--all other things being equal (which of course they aren't). And all the people who speak at events for free and even cover their own travel (or their companies do) definitely make it harder for qualified people who would prefer to be paid to do so. But, to be blunt, I don't care. If it's in my personal interest to do those things for free, I'm not going to choose to abstain because of some microscopic impact on the labor market. In this photographer case, I actually don't think there's much of an impact. Someone mentioned Super Bowl performers performing for free. I doubt anyone thinks Lady Gaga is going to start giving gratis concerts all over the place. There has been a major impact on photography as a profession but that's more about the proliferation of free, cheap, and easily obtained amateur photos.