6 ms·

Not at all. Major apps and OSes put a "choose your race" message on their UI (and very strongly direct people to make that choice). This does not mean there was

Not at all. Major apps and OSes put a "choose your race" message on their UI (and very strongly direct people to make that choice). This does not mean there was pre-existing latent demand for this. What this shows is if you inject the concept of racial self-identity onto cartoon symbols, and afford people a way to navigate that selection, people can do that. Not that anyone wanted this, or that this feature is beneficial.

andrewzah 5y ago
"Not that anyone wanted this, or that this feature is beneficial." Usage clearly states otherwise. No one is forced to use a particular skin tone (they can continue using the default yellow one). This comment frankly is quite dismissive. Just because you don't use a feature doesn't mean "no one wanted it".
- jessedhillon 5y ago
  Users follow prompts, so "people choose a race when presented with a racialized emoji picker" doesn't mean "people want their emojis racialized". It means, people understand what they are being asked to do, and want to get back to their business. You would need to have a theory of benefit, and then design a survey which tests users to understand if that benefit was achieved. You, frankly, are confused about causation -- we put a dialog in front of people and they made a selection, therefore people wanted this dialog?
  - andrewzah 5y ago
    "we put a dialog in front of people and they made a selection, therefore people wanted this dialog" You're suggesting that it's impossible for people to have wanted a feature, because UXs have a popup showing people that it's possible to use that feature now. I disagree. You're projecting your personal opinion as everyone's personal opinion. And that emoji picker still allows you to pick the default yellow color. So if people -really- didn't want to use them, they wouldn't.
    - jessedhillon 5y ago
      I'm not suggesting it's impossible. I'm saying you don't know what you claim to know, and to my knowledge nobody has tried to know it. People, such as yourself, assume that because this feature is used, it's desired. This is not at all warranted, given what we know about how people use computers.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      No, it's more like, we put up this dialog, and people didn't overwhelmingly pick jaundice. And therefore the available variety is preferred over less variety.
- recursive 5y ago
  Just because something is used a lot doesn't mean that any number of people wanted it.
  - crazygringo 5y ago
    If they're using something a lot that's non-default, and they have to go out of their way to select it...? Yeah, it does mean those people want it. There's literally no other way to interpret it.
    - jessedhillon 5y ago
      People choose to pay their taxes, therefore people want taxes. People choose to accept EULAs before they use software, therefore people want EULAs. People choose to stay with spouses with whom they occasionally fight, therefore people want fighting in their lives. People choose to navigate complex civil bureaucracies in order to get things done, therefore they want bureaucracy. Or, people can suffer through a certain amount of bullshit in order to get to their goals. The word you're looking for is "instrumental" -- there's your missing interpretation. At some point in the past ten or so years, the cultural discourse has devolved to such an extent that people cannot think even one move ahead. Zero tolerance manicheanism rules everything now.
      - crazygringo 5y ago
        None of those are analagous to the question at hand. People are clearly using the emoji they want because they want to in and of itself, end of story. They're not doing it to satisfy the government or access software or whatever. And no, I'm not looking for the word "instrumental", because emoji are about expression, which is literally the polar opposite of something being instrumental. Sometimes it's not about looking twenty moves ahead. Some things are just valuable in and of themselves. Some things are about the moment. Perhaps that's the perspective you're missing here? Just because some things are instrumental doesn't mean everything is. And thank goodness for that!
        5y ago
- z0r 5y ago
  look, i'm not making a point specifically about the topic of this overall post. but DAU type metrics are used to justify all kinds of poor designs
kalleboo 5y ago
> Major apps and OSes put a "choose your race" message on their UI (and very strongly direct people to make that choice) I have literally never seen this, can you provide a few examples? I'm curious how it's presented.
- jessedhillon 5y ago
  I don't mean they literally print these words. You can see how it's done if you search for "emoji color picker" or similar.
  - watwut 5y ago
    The two phrases are massively different. One is asking you which color of emoji you prefer. Other is asking you which race you are. The difference is big enough to make original statement lie - inflammatory lie that makes people outraged over something that dont exists.
    - jessedhillon 5y ago
      >One is asking you which color of emoji you prefer. Other is asking you which race you are. How would you recommend which emoji color I should pick? How do you imagine most people would navigate that decision? >The difference is big enough to make original statement lie - inflammatory lie that makes people outraged over something that dont exists. I'm very sorry that your notions of epistemology and morality are this underdeveloped, for you to be so confused about what lies are.
      - klyrs 5y ago
        > How would you recommend which emoji color I should pick? Think for yourself, pick what you want to pick
      - watwut 5y ago
        Personally, I would use the one most people around me use. The second choice for me would be the least bright one. I don't like how shiny bright colors mixed into text.
barbazoo 5y ago
I've never in my life seen a OS or app ask me what my race is for the purpose of determining what emojis to show me. Is that really a thing?
- jessedhillon 5y ago
  No, I'm shooting from the hip and exaggerating (slightly). When you're sending an emoji for the first time, an app typically presents you with a selection of skin colors for the hand or face icon you're choosing. My point is that this is a design decision to impart significance into racial self-identity. So the entire exercise is tautological -- of course people pick a skin color, when you frame the choice as "pick your skin color before you send this (or don't and we'll just keep using the inhuman color, which might communicate its own signal, or just look weird when everyone else has a skin tone)". And of course it's meant to be informed by race. We decided to present skin tone (race) as something important, and people responded as though it's important, is not a surprising finding.
rsynnott 5y ago
> Major apps and OSes put a "choose your race" message on their UI (and very strongly direct people to make that choice). Eh? Never having set it, I went looking for the setting in Slack. It's so discreet that I had to Google it. I still have no idea where it might be in MacOS. The idea that this is being forced on people is kind of absurd.

andrewzah 5y ago

"Not that anyone wanted this, or that this feature is beneficial." Usage clearly states otherwise. No one is forced to use a particular skin tone (they can continue using the default yellow one). This comment frankly is quite dismissive. Just because you don't use a feature doesn't mean "no one wanted it".

jessedhillon 5y ago
Users follow prompts, so "people choose a race when presented with a racialized emoji picker" doesn't mean "people want their emojis racialized". It means, people understand what they are being asked to do, and want to get back to their business. You would need to have a theory of benefit, and then design a survey which tests users to understand if that benefit was achieved. You, frankly, are confused about causation -- we put a dialog in front of people and they made a selection, therefore people wanted this dialog?
- andrewzah 5y ago
  "we put a dialog in front of people and they made a selection, therefore people wanted this dialog" You're suggesting that it's impossible for people to have wanted a feature, because UXs have a popup showing people that it's possible to use that feature now. I disagree. You're projecting your personal opinion as everyone's personal opinion. And that emoji picker still allows you to pick the default yellow color. So if people -really- didn't want to use them, they wouldn't.
  - jessedhillon 5y ago
    I'm not suggesting it's impossible. I'm saying you don't know what you claim to know, and to my knowledge nobody has tried to know it. People, such as yourself, assume that because this feature is used, it's desired. This is not at all warranted, given what we know about how people use computers.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    No, it's more like, we put up this dialog, and people didn't overwhelmingly pick jaundice. And therefore the available variety is preferred over less variety.
recursive 5y ago
Just because something is used a lot doesn't mean that any number of people wanted it.
- crazygringo 5y ago
  If they're using something a lot that's non-default, and they have to go out of their way to select it...? Yeah, it does mean those people want it. There's literally no other way to interpret it.
  - jessedhillon 5y ago
    People choose to pay their taxes, therefore people want taxes. People choose to accept EULAs before they use software, therefore people want EULAs. People choose to stay with spouses with whom they occasionally fight, therefore people want fighting in their lives. People choose to navigate complex civil bureaucracies in order to get things done, therefore they want bureaucracy. Or, people can suffer through a certain amount of bullshit in order to get to their goals. The word you're looking for is "instrumental" -- there's your missing interpretation. At some point in the past ten or so years, the cultural discourse has devolved to such an extent that people cannot think even one move ahead. Zero tolerance manicheanism rules everything now.
    - crazygringo 5y ago
      None of those are analagous to the question at hand. People are clearly using the emoji they want because they want to in and of itself, end of story. They're not doing it to satisfy the government or access software or whatever. And no, I'm not looking for the word "instrumental", because emoji are about expression, which is literally the polar opposite of something being instrumental. Sometimes it's not about looking twenty moves ahead. Some things are just valuable in and of themselves. Some things are about the moment. Perhaps that's the perspective you're missing here? Just because some things are instrumental doesn't mean everything is. And thank goodness for that!
      - 5y ago
z0r 5y ago
look, i'm not making a point specifically about the topic of this overall post. but DAU type metrics are used to justify all kinds of poor designs

kalleboo 5y ago

> Major apps and OSes put a "choose your race" message on their UI (and very strongly direct people to make that choice) I have literally never seen this, can you provide a few examples? I'm curious how it's presented.

jessedhillon 5y ago
I don't mean they literally print these words. You can see how it's done if you search for "emoji color picker" or similar.
- watwut 5y ago
  The two phrases are massively different. One is asking you which color of emoji you prefer. Other is asking you which race you are. The difference is big enough to make original statement lie - inflammatory lie that makes people outraged over something that dont exists.
  - jessedhillon 5y ago
    >One is asking you which color of emoji you prefer. Other is asking you which race you are. How would you recommend which emoji color I should pick? How do you imagine most people would navigate that decision? >The difference is big enough to make original statement lie - inflammatory lie that makes people outraged over something that dont exists. I'm very sorry that your notions of epistemology and morality are this underdeveloped, for you to be so confused about what lies are.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      > How would you recommend which emoji color I should pick? Think for yourself, pick what you want to pick
    - watwut 5y ago
      Personally, I would use the one most people around me use. The second choice for me would be the least bright one. I don't like how shiny bright colors mixed into text.

barbazoo 5y ago

I've never in my life seen a OS or app ask me what my race is for the purpose of determining what emojis to show me. Is that really a thing?

jessedhillon 5y ago
No, I'm shooting from the hip and exaggerating (slightly). When you're sending an emoji for the first time, an app typically presents you with a selection of skin colors for the hand or face icon you're choosing. My point is that this is a design decision to impart significance into racial self-identity. So the entire exercise is tautological -- of course people pick a skin color, when you frame the choice as "pick your skin color before you send this (or don't and we'll just keep using the inhuman color, which might communicate its own signal, or just look weird when everyone else has a skin tone)". And of course it's meant to be informed by race. We decided to present skin tone (race) as something important, and people responded as though it's important, is not a surprising finding.

rsynnott 5y ago

> Major apps and OSes put a "choose your race" message on their UI (and very strongly direct people to make that choice). Eh? Never having set it, I went looking for the setting in Slack. It's so discreet that I had to Google it. I still have no idea where it might be in MacOS. The idea that this is being forced on people is kind of absurd.