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If you've ever worked in Mainland China in virtually any field, you've undoubtedly heard workers or managers use the phrase "chabuduo" accompanied by a shoulder
by system16 5y ago
If you've ever worked in Mainland China in virtually any field, you've undoubtedly heard workers or managers use the phrase "chabuduo" accompanied by a shoulder shrug. It translates to "close enough".
When you've purchased some cheap product that is Made in China and falls apart after a few months, or when you hear a building in China has collapsed due to cutting corners or cheaping out on materials, or when an accident occurs because safety measures at a factory were non-existent, or when rocket pieces come crashing out of the sky... you can be sure somebody involved mentioned this risk and there was a decision maker who shrugged it off with a "chabuduo".
To be clear it's an attitude very prevalent in Mainland China and not culturally specific to Chinese - I haven't encountered this in Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, or even Hong Kong - and I think it's an attitude that is really holding China back from its full potential.
- imagineerschool 5y agoWatch out that commenting on Chinese culture doesn't get you branded as a racist! I made these stickers to put on my ChaBuDuo machines so no one in my lab gets confused: https://www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/UPGRADED-REAL-CHINESIUM-WOW-by-topqualitynow/77004945.EJUG5 https://www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/UPGRADED-REAL-CHINESIUM-... Edit: I should have expected these downvotes from people who have never spent any time in Mainland China and the wumaodang. JiaYou!
- bitxbitxbitcoin 5y agoI have heard “chabuduo” in both Taiwan and Malaysia. You are definitely into something, though. Let me elaborate a little more: I think the thing that makes this more prevalent in China, besides the larger population, are the incentives put in place for the winds of exaggeration to blow. These failures occur when you mix that micro level idgaf with a macro level one.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago"chabuduo" is a common expression in Chinese used in everyday language. Not just "close enough" in English but also "more or less", "-ish", etc in every language so yes it will be heard everywhere people speak mandarin. What may be specific is to use it to brush off substandard work. Edit: In this case, I don't think mentioning "chabuduo" (as a brush off of substandard work) is apt, though. I think it's more about their can-do and "move fast, break things" attitude.
- gpvos 5y agoidgaf = I don't give a f**
- 88840-8855 5y agoSounds like a huge generalization. I worked in China for a few years and saw the full spectrum, from maximum half-assingness to autistic perfectionism. We have the same palette also here in Germany. The big difference is the level of education and experience. While we Germans do stuff for 150 years with 0 disruption since the industrial revolution, the Chinese started at 0 somewhere in the 90s. Ah, yes, and the corruption, this is another thing they have to improve in order to become true market leaders in the industries they want to lead in.
- EForEndeavour 5y agoI can think of more than a couple of "disruptions" to German society since the industrial revolution.
- jackTheMan 5y agoI would add that the lack of religion might also contributes to the chabuduo in China. As earning money overwrites everything over make things proper (or with pride). Also as the population is supersized the parazite behaviour can survive much better than in smaller places. This might can be compensated with the pointing system in the world of internet thou. Anyway I don't think it's an overgeneralization. It is probably not the case for space rocket, but chabuduo also means the taped-together-bikes, the messy meat shop, driving the other side of the road, even if invisible following the promises standards etc. You meat with this every day guaranteed. If somewhere than in Germany people are following the rules, tidy their environment etc. very very far from China. Just take one example of the blind guide tiles. In Beijing and Shanghai I've already lost counts how many times it leads to an obstacle like cable post. In Germany, there would be not even one case even in country side...
- podric 5y agoThe perceived bad quality of Chinese products is partly a deliberate marketing strategy to make products that prioritize low price over quality, and partly due to lax standards relative to countries like the US. It's a lousy argument to suggest that Chinese products are bad because Chinese culture does not promote attention to detail because some people sometimes say "chabuduo". One can equally make the same bad argument about American workers, because some Americans use the expression "just eyeball it" at work. When held to a high standard, Chinese people are capable of producing high quality products, evident in the prevalence of Chinese SWEs in FANG and the fact that Apple and Tesla both have major manufacturing facilities in China.
- eric_b 5y ago> It's a lousy argument to suggest that Chinese products are bad because Chinese culture does not promote attention to detail because some people sometimes say "chabuduo". With respect, you have not spent much time in mainland China. "Chabuduo" is pervasive in a way that you are downplaying - either because you have some agenda or you are not knowledgeable. There is absolutely no comparison between the average Chinese manufacturing process and the average US one. Are their outliers in all cases? Of course. But generally speaking the GP is correct. With regards to Apple and Tesla (and I would also add Volvo) - high quality/high tolerance manufacturing CAN be done in China of course. But it's only because the Western companies who pull it off have imposed their culture, standards and rules, on the process.
- deepstack 5y agoI think the parent author is emphasizing that this culture of "Chabuduo" is not inherent to Chinese culture, rather it is may be something came out of getting rich fast scheme that is inherent to an emergent economic and industrial power.
- eric_b 5y agoYeah, I got that part - and I understand why people would want to believe that because no one wants to believe a culture can have sub-optimal traits. But from where I stand, it is a cultural thing. It may be expedient, it may have sprung from a time when it was more advantageous than it is now, but there's no denying it exists.
- 0x142857 5y agothis is the worst take I've seen in quite a while. no proof but based on personal experience and imagination.
- cigaser 5y agoThere is also a concept that only close friends and family matters. People outside of this circle do not really count as people. Putting poison in milk is not "good enough" but malicious action. There was similar mentality in soviet countries.
- mytailorisrich 5y agoThis sort of things was not uncommon in Victorian times in the UK (and I'm sure everywhere else). This is partly what led to all the health and safety regulations we have. Many things in China are similar to Victorian Britain: Industrialisation and economic boom, infrastructure boom, can-do attitude even if it breaks a few things along the way, selling whatever to make a profit (In the UK it was not uncommon to cut flour with plaster to make cheaper bread and cause malnutrition in poor children, for example)
- mr_overalls 5y agoThis article explores the concept in greater detail. The most common interpretation in a professional context is "half-assed job." Black mold in a room? Just paint over it. Cha bu duo. A pinch of this instead of a teaspoon of that? Cha bu duo. Is the stitching around the seams crooked? Cha bu duo. I'm speculating, but I wonder if this is the result of inflexible top-down management practices, courtesy of the historical legacy of the CCP. https://medium.com/random-acts-of-management/cha-bu-duo-is-not-what-you-think-it-means-32084cb3cde2 https://medium.com/random-acts-of-management/cha-bu-duo-is-n...
- varispeed 5y agoIt's not about Chinese people - it's communism that essentially promotes such behaviour. You'll find this in every communist country. edit: I see a rain of downvotes, oh well. I get that there is a generation who loves communist happy clappy principles on the surface, but never had their family members straight up murdered nor sent to gulags never to be seen again. Communism doesn't take human nature into account and objective always ends up being killing anyone who doesn't fit.
- La1n 5y agoEvery country has some of this, the Dutch example: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zesjescultuur https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zesjescultuur
- varispeed 5y agoThis is quite different. In communism, in theory - everything belongs to everyone, so nobody cares about anything. There is no so-called "minimum" that you have to do - you just have to been seen as "working". It's only when your job is in the spotlight and doing something incorrectly could place your family in the camp, then they somewhat care. Here the falling rocket may serve as an objective to test countries air defence mechanisms, so that could have been done on purpose and communist incompetence may be a smoke screen.
- dirtshell 5y agoPlease read a book about communism before you go around calling countries Communist. It makes it difficult to take anything you say seriously.
- foobarthrowaway 5y agoHe's talking about what communism turns out to be, not what it wishes to be.
- claudiawerner 5y ago
- analog31 5y agoWe have phrases in the US too: "Good enough for government work." "The perfect is the enemy of the good."
- sidlls 5y agoNeither of these is applied in the same way or with the same ubiquity or frequency. "Good enough for government work" is also frequently used mockingly or in anger/disgust at poor quality workmanship.
- novaleaf 5y agoI never heard it in anger, but yes, it is a joke. Where I am (western washington state) it's used to imply that something works to spec but could have been done a lot better if there was the motivation.
- EvanAnderson 5y agoThe familiar phrase the GP made me think of is: "Good enough for who it's for."
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- tgv 5y agoThe latter means something entirely different.
- TeMPOraL 5y agoExcept when it doesn't. It's frequently used as a blanket justification to do a half-assed but faster job. It's very much common in the software industry too.
- splithalf 5y ago“Good enough for government work” is one of the right’s greatest memes.
- dirtshell 5y agoIf you've ever worked in the United States in virtually any field, you've undoubtedly heard workers or managers use the phrase "good enough for government work" accompanied by a shoulder shrug. It translates to "close enough". When you've purchased some expensive product that is made in the United States and it falls apart after a few months, or when you hear a building in the US has collapsed due to cutting corners or cheaping out on materials, or when an accident occurs because safety measures at a factory were non-existent, or when rocket pieces come crashing out of the sky... you can be sure somebody involved mentioned this risk and there was a decision maker who shrugged it off with a "good enough for government work". To be clear it's an attitude very prevalent in the United Staes and not culturally specific to the United States - I haven't encountered this in Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, or even Hong Kong - and I think it's an attitude that is really holding the US back from its full potential.
- Gravey 5y agoI’ll be honest, when rephrased this way none of these points ring true to me. At least in no way to the same extent as the OP.
- splithalf 5y agoSpeaking of rocket pieces falling from the sky... https://time.com/6046051/china-long-march-rocket/ https://time.com/6046051/china-long-march-rocket/
- powerapple 5y agoYeah, right. If you are building a rocket, you have to have that attitude, otherwise, how can you launch it successfully. Yes, insert "virtually any field" in your conclusion, sum up 1.4 billion people nicely. chabudou is about accept tradeoffs economically, this is especially true when China was very very very poor. If you work in service industry, you know Chinese customers are very flexible. It is neither good or bad. You are not handcrafting a handbag for a rich upper class Englishman.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoBack when I was a student employee of a state university I had to sit through a mandatory training part of which was where they told us we were not allowed to be overt racists, sexually harass each other, embezzle money (i.e. the usual stuff) or say things not befitting a the government's self image (I'm paraphrasing but that's what it was) including specifically the phrase "good enough for government" and suggested alternatives. Based on the training it was pretty clear that this was a generic training that anyone receiving a paycheck from a state entity had to sit through. Having a specific phrase to refer to known half-assery isn't specific to China. I suspect it's a pretty universal thing across cultures
- Bukhmanizer 5y agoThe argument here is completely illogical and frankly pretty racist. You assert the Chinese have a broad cultural trend of laziness or poor work ethic, and your only supporting argument is that a word exists in the language? A word that roughly translates to “meh”, or “who cares” in English? If only it were that easy to instil cultural values. Want to get rid of rape culture? Just get rid of the word “rape”.
- trts 5y agoWhile I agree what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence, it seems the comment was describing an attitude and not behavior that was enabled based on the existence of certain vocabulary.
- Bukhmanizer 5y agoYou can describe an attitude without exoticizing it.
- fidesomnes 5y agoMissing the forest for the tree, well done!
- ehnto 5y agoAustralian's have a term, "She'll be right", which is used in much the same way (it's also used in some other ways). But I think the difference is in how much bite regulators and consumer protection bodies have, and in Australia, it's a lot. "She'll be right" usually only applies until it won't be alright, it's more about pragmatism than laziness. This is all obviously generalizing, everyone is different. But you can't really discuss colloquialisms without generalizing.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dnautics 5y agoIn the us we sometimes say "good enough for government work".
- ericyan 5y agoThe term "差不多 (chabuduo)" could but is often NOT used with a shoulder shrug in day-to-day communication. The actual meaning, just like any other language, depends a lot on the context. For questions asking for a mount of something ("How much ... would you like?"), it is common to answer that with 差不多兩匙 (about two spoons) or 差不多那樣 (that's about right). In this context it should translate to "about" or "about right". When someone is being annoying, people in the northern part of China would often say 差不多得了, which means "that's enough, stop it". Of course, there would be mediocre people use this phrase with a shoulder shrug. The problem is the attitude, which as you said, is not culturally specific to Chinese. > It's an attitude very prevalent in Mainland China Mainland China has a huge population. Even if just 10% of them having this attitude, that is still a lot of people. There is a good chance you have met some of them, as I did myself, unfortunately. There is also bias. Cheap products, regardless where it is made, has a higher probability to fall apart after a few months. You will only hear it from the news if a building collapsed or there was a terrible incident; if everything works -- as it should -- it won't make the headlines. There is also a term for poorly-built projects, 豆腐渣工程（ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu-dreg_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu-dreg_project) and people are furious when they read about it. People cut corners because they have the incentive to do so and they know they might be able to get way with it by paying a relatively small penalty to the potential gain. It is not a "chabuduo", it is actually about taking a precisely calculated risk. The flawed system is giving the people the wrong incentive, that's what holding China back from its full potential. > I haven't encountered this in Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, or even Hong Kong. That's probably just because you haven't stayed in those place long enough. A quick search in Spotify gives you: * 差不多姑娘 by G.E.M, a singer in Hong Kong: https://open.spotify.com/album/28sxY4WxuFLQ5wMeugtyAp https://open.spotify.com/album/28sxY4WxuFLQ5wMeugtyAp * 差不多先生 by MC HotDog, from Taiwan: https://open.spotify.com/album/7xEo9EqHb4X52fA7DGiDPg https://open.spotify.com/album/7xEo9EqHb4X52fA7DGiDPg * and so on...
- dirtyid 5y agoChabudo _IS_ why China is able to rapidly progress towards full potential. Fast, cheap, good. Pick two. Deng wanted poor China to develop fast. So ChaBuDuo. The original Life of Mr. Cha Buduo was an essay on the inability to adapt to modernization. Good enough + Chinese scale / population means = enough occasional, actually good outcomes to reach global competitiveness in ways that matter, fast. Modern Chinese ChaBuDuo culture is the maximal embrace of it for specific development goals. ChaBuDuo culture can be reigned in if the government really wanted to i.e. Chinese aviation safety used to be dismal, now it's one of the safest in the world. Same with high speed rail safety after the very public Wenzhou train crash. The question is whether PRC space program is guided more by "ChaBuDuo" vs world class quality due to political costs like aviation safety, or HSR, or rocket force etc etc. In terms of meeting results / goals I'd wager the latter.