4 ms·

Don't most countries grant citizenship to children born on their territory who aren't eligible for any other citizenship? I've heard of cases where the children

by taejo 5y ago

Don't most countries grant citizenship to children born on their territory who aren't eligible for any other citizenship? I've heard of cases where the children had a hard time proving that to be the case (the embassy of the parents' state of citizenship would neither grant citizenship nor certify non-citizenship) but I didn't realise one could be completely ineligible for any citizenship from birth in a western country.

peterburkimsher 5y ago
If they're not eligible for any other citizenship, you're right, I would be able to apply for them to have a special grant of nationality. However, I would like me, a future wife, and potential future children to all have the right to live in the same country. If those kids had a Swiss passport, but my visa to Switzerland got denied, I'd end up separated from them. This is happening to many British families from the area who hadn't tried to get a second EU citizenship. Also, those kids would have to do military service for Switzerland (or Austria, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore... many countries) and learn to kill foreigners. As a foreigner, there's a conflict of interest - I'd rather not have children be forced to kill me.
- names_are_hard 5y ago
  > As a foreigner, there's a conflict of interest - I'd rather not have children be forced to kill me. I'm not sure how seriously you meant this, but that seems a little exaggerated. If your kids are drafted into service in another Western country than you hold citizenship, the odds that they would find themselves fighting a war against your country are slim. And even if it does happen, they'd likely find themselves transferred or exempted on account of a parent being one of the enemy. On top of that, there are an abundance of non-combat roles for draftees - here in Israel you can spend your mandatory service programming computers, driving or fixing trucks, coordinating international communication with countries that are only semi-friendly (maybe that of your parents, since you speak the language!), stapling papers together with no apparent purpose other than government bureaucracy, supervising a kitchen, investigating higher-ups in the military for fraud and corruption (internal police), diffusing bombs, helping with Covid testing/ vaccine logistics, or singing in a choir. (I have met people who did most all of those things. If you don't want to kill people you have many other options.) On some level, any participation in the organization is indirectly supporting the war effort, but so is paying taxes. Would you be against your children paying taxes to a country other than your own?
  - peterburkimsher 5y ago
    For Switzerland that position may be tenable, but not for Taiwan. I fear that there could be a war within the lifetime of my potential future children, and I want nothing to do with it. Many other students in the Engineering department of Lancaster University, where I studied, went to work for BAE Systems, a defence contractor and major local employer. I joined protest marches against them. I'm still involved in activism, most recently last Saturday in a solidarity march for Myanmar. Military service does more than just train violence, it also takes away peoples' youth (which could be spent in Erasmus or Working Holiday), causes relationships to become long-distance and often break up, and creates a sense of national pride (which is contrary to the international views of the EU and UN that I support). The violence may also not be directed towards others: there is a very high suicide rate within the military. I can say that if I'm ordered to shoot someone else, I'd rather shoot myself. I suggest you read this poem, 5 Ways To Kill A Man - Edwin Brock, and consider how the distance between a murderer and the victim becomes larger through weapons technology, the more devastating the results can be. Supporting the military through R&D is not an acceptable alternative. https://poetryarchive.org/poem/five-ways-kill-man/ https://poetryarchive.org/poem/five-ways-kill-man/ Alternative service for conscientious objectors is sometimes available, but many of the issues above also apply to the police service, and I may not have the freedom to choose ambulance/fire service instead. I'd rather run away than fight, so I've chosen to run to the ends of the earth in NZ.
    - names_are_hard 5y ago
      Your points about the harm mandatory conscription inflicts upon citizens are valid. And I agree that if you're against war, you should not voluntarily go work for a defense contractor. But i think if you're drafted the calculus is different. Would you conscientiously object to paying taxes in a country fighting a war? How is mandatory non-combat service (say kitchen work) different from funding the military via taxes?
      - peterburkimsher 5y ago
        If I give money to a homeless person and they spend it on drugs, am I responsible for their choice? If I give money to a government and they spend it on weapons, am I responsible? Draftees, even in non-combat roles, often have to explain their service to future governments. Visas can be denied for many reasons, including that. My US visa conversion from J1 to F1 was denied because I was too poor, not having $40k in my own bank account at age 19, but the visa could've be been denied for many other reasons such as political differences: "communism", "terrorism".

by taejo 5y ago

peterburkimsher 5y ago

If they're not eligible for any other citizenship, you're right, I would be able to apply for them to have a special grant of nationality. However, I would like me, a future wife, and potential future children to all have the right to live in the same country. If those kids had a Swiss passport, but my visa to Switzerland got denied, I'd end up separated from them. This is happening to many British families from the area who hadn't tried to get a second EU citizenship. Also, those kids would have to do military service for Switzerland (or Austria, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore... many countries) and learn to kill foreigners. As a foreigner, there's a conflict of interest - I'd rather not have children be forced to kill me.

names_are_hard 5y ago
> As a foreigner, there's a conflict of interest - I'd rather not have children be forced to kill me. I'm not sure how seriously you meant this, but that seems a little exaggerated. If your kids are drafted into service in another Western country than you hold citizenship, the odds that they would find themselves fighting a war against your country are slim. And even if it does happen, they'd likely find themselves transferred or exempted on account of a parent being one of the enemy. On top of that, there are an abundance of non-combat roles for draftees - here in Israel you can spend your mandatory service programming computers, driving or fixing trucks, coordinating international communication with countries that are only semi-friendly (maybe that of your parents, since you speak the language!), stapling papers together with no apparent purpose other than government bureaucracy, supervising a kitchen, investigating higher-ups in the military for fraud and corruption (internal police), diffusing bombs, helping with Covid testing/ vaccine logistics, or singing in a choir. (I have met people who did most all of those things. If you don't want to kill people you have many other options.) On some level, any participation in the organization is indirectly supporting the war effort, but so is paying taxes. Would you be against your children paying taxes to a country other than your own?
- peterburkimsher 5y ago
  For Switzerland that position may be tenable, but not for Taiwan. I fear that there could be a war within the lifetime of my potential future children, and I want nothing to do with it. Many other students in the Engineering department of Lancaster University, where I studied, went to work for BAE Systems, a defence contractor and major local employer. I joined protest marches against them. I'm still involved in activism, most recently last Saturday in a solidarity march for Myanmar. Military service does more than just train violence, it also takes away peoples' youth (which could be spent in Erasmus or Working Holiday), causes relationships to become long-distance and often break up, and creates a sense of national pride (which is contrary to the international views of the EU and UN that I support). The violence may also not be directed towards others: there is a very high suicide rate within the military. I can say that if I'm ordered to shoot someone else, I'd rather shoot myself. I suggest you read this poem, 5 Ways To Kill A Man - Edwin Brock, and consider how the distance between a murderer and the victim becomes larger through weapons technology, the more devastating the results can be. Supporting the military through R&D is not an acceptable alternative. https://poetryarchive.org/poem/five-ways-kill-man/ https://poetryarchive.org/poem/five-ways-kill-man/ Alternative service for conscientious objectors is sometimes available, but many of the issues above also apply to the police service, and I may not have the freedom to choose ambulance/fire service instead. I'd rather run away than fight, so I've chosen to run to the ends of the earth in NZ.
  - names_are_hard 5y ago
    Your points about the harm mandatory conscription inflicts upon citizens are valid. And I agree that if you're against war, you should not voluntarily go work for a defense contractor. But i think if you're drafted the calculus is different. Would you conscientiously object to paying taxes in a country fighting a war? How is mandatory non-combat service (say kitchen work) different from funding the military via taxes?
    - peterburkimsher 5y ago
      If I give money to a homeless person and they spend it on drugs, am I responsible for their choice? If I give money to a government and they spend it on weapons, am I responsible? Draftees, even in non-combat roles, often have to explain their service to future governments. Visas can be denied for many reasons, including that. My US visa conversion from J1 to F1 was denied because I was too poor, not having $40k in my own bank account at age 19, but the visa could've be been denied for many other reasons such as political differences: "communism", "terrorism".