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I grew up on the border of France and Switzerland. My dad worked at CERN in Switzerland, was paid in Swiss francs, and had Swiss health insurance. Houses were c

I grew up on the border of France and Switzerland. My dad worked at CERN in Switzerland, was paid in Swiss francs, and had Swiss health insurance. Houses were cheaper in France, so they live in the Pays de Gex and crossed the border every day. I was born in Switzerland. I was smuggled to France when I was a few days old so my parents could take me home. I got a passport a few months later, with a baby photo. I went to school in Switzerland, 20 minutes from the house. I had to take my passport to school, though we had a "frontalier" card that we'd show in the car windscreen so we'd rarely be stopped by border guards. It was a Schengen external border until 2007, though! There are many stories of people getting stuck at that border for forgetting their ID, or phones connecting to the wrong transmitter causing people to get 3000 EUR phone bills for roaming data. My first kiss was on that border though, so I have quite fond memories of it! The problem of growing up there is that I can't be Swiss - my parents weren't resident. I can't be French either - I wasn't born there. So my passport is British by descent. Children cannot be British from me, because I wasn't born in the UK. If I wanted to continue living in Geneva, children would be stateless. That started me on a long journey of trying to find a new country. I went off to university, and proceeded to live in the UK, USA, Switzerland, Taiwan, Canada, New Zealand, Japan, Korea, Austria, Netherlands, China, and India. In 2013 I decided that I wanted to move to New Zealand, but the process of moving here has been so slow (getting work experience in Taiwan, waiting 2 years for a case officer to evaluate my SMC visa, finding a new job that pays enough to satisfy Immigration), means that I only just got residency at age 31. (Children born in NZ can now be citizens, which will allow me to get married in future). Hopefully by age 36 I'll finally have a passport and a country to really call home.

hunter-2 5y ago
Such a fascinating story! Thank you
nitendoraku 5y ago
Presumably if you didn't achieve residency elsewhere any potential wife would have some status which could be passed onto the kids?
- peterburkimsher 5y ago
  Not if she's in the same situation, like most classmates and other Geneva people. What if my temporary work visa gets denied? If I had a family, I could end up unemployed, deported, and separated from wife and kids. Those kids would grow up without a father around, increasing their chances of divorce. It would be disastrous. Would I rather choose a wife based on her nationality, or go through the long, gruelling process of trying to earn it? My girlfriend is from Taiwan, and despite its many flaws, the Immigration system is really my only hope for getting the prerequisites to start a family.
- gumby 5y ago
  In some countries nationality status can only be passed through paternity, not maternity. There might still be some countries that require that a child be born physically within the country as well, though I don’t track it.
taejo 5y ago
Don't most countries grant citizenship to children born on their territory who aren't eligible for any other citizenship? I've heard of cases where the children had a hard time proving that to be the case (the embassy of the parents' state of citizenship would neither grant citizenship nor certify non-citizenship) but I didn't realise one could be completely ineligible for any citizenship from birth in a western country.
- peterburkimsher 5y ago
  If they're not eligible for any other citizenship, you're right, I would be able to apply for them to have a special grant of nationality. However, I would like me, a future wife, and potential future children to all have the right to live in the same country. If those kids had a Swiss passport, but my visa to Switzerland got denied, I'd end up separated from them. This is happening to many British families from the area who hadn't tried to get a second EU citizenship. Also, those kids would have to do military service for Switzerland (or Austria, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore... many countries) and learn to kill foreigners. As a foreigner, there's a conflict of interest - I'd rather not have children be forced to kill me.
  - names_are_hard 5y ago
    > As a foreigner, there's a conflict of interest - I'd rather not have children be forced to kill me. I'm not sure how seriously you meant this, but that seems a little exaggerated. If your kids are drafted into service in another Western country than you hold citizenship, the odds that they would find themselves fighting a war against your country are slim. And even if it does happen, they'd likely find themselves transferred or exempted on account of a parent being one of the enemy. On top of that, there are an abundance of non-combat roles for draftees - here in Israel you can spend your mandatory service programming computers, driving or fixing trucks, coordinating international communication with countries that are only semi-friendly (maybe that of your parents, since you speak the language!), stapling papers together with no apparent purpose other than government bureaucracy, supervising a kitchen, investigating higher-ups in the military for fraud and corruption (internal police), diffusing bombs, helping with Covid testing/ vaccine logistics, or singing in a choir. (I have met people who did most all of those things. If you don't want to kill people you have many other options.) On some level, any participation in the organization is indirectly supporting the war effort, but so is paying taxes. Would you be against your children paying taxes to a country other than your own?
seszett 5y ago
> The problem of growing up there is that I can't be Swiss - my parents weren't resident. I can't be French either - I wasn't born there. So my passport is British by descent. Children cannot be British from me, because I wasn't born in the UK. If I wanted to continue living in Geneva, children would be stateless. If you have lived in France for the past 5 years (and still live there) you can get French citizenship. If you have obtained a diploma in a French university, you only need to have lived in France for the past 2 years. If you have moved since then and don't live in France anymore, it might be too late though (unless you move back to France and wait 2 or 5 years). (Also if you have siblings with French nationality, maybe if they were born in France after you were born in Switzerland, you are already technically French but have to claim your nationality).
- peterburkimsher 5y ago
  Moving away and moving back again is the situation of my friend Drew, who had the same situation (with US and Canadian parents, but born in Switzerland and living in France). He went to university in the UK, and returned to live in France and work in Switzerland. The processing time means that 5 years is actually 7 years or more. My brother tried to apply for French nationality after his 18th birthday before going to university, but the application process is so slow that he wasn't interviewed until several years into his studies. The French immigration officials didn't like that he wasn't living there, so they deferred his application until he returned (and he chose not to return, but went to Australia instead). It may have also been complicated by going to the International School of Geneva in Switzerland, rather than a local French school. I don't have any other siblings born in France, and my mum is past the age of childbearing unfortunately! My parents were able to naturalise and become French after 34 years. They applied when my dad retired, and after about 2 years they finally got it, in the midst of the political troubles of the UK leaving the EU. There was some worry about whether my parents would even be allowed to continue living in the house they spent 25 years paying off a mortgage to own. They couldn't apply earlier because CERN is an international organisation and doesn't pay French tax, so my dad was only paying French tax after his retirement.
peterburkimsher 5y ago
Why not marry a British girl and live in the UK? Because I can never be truly British. 5 years from now, I hope to earn NZ nationality. Any children born overseas after that could have NZ citizenship by descent. But a British citizen by descent has no way to "upgrade" their citizenship - not even after living there for 5 years. So I could live in the UK for 20 years, but would never be allowed to have children in Geneva. A French person has more right to become British than I do! They could naturalise, I can't. I'm officially a "second-class citizen". A citizen, not a BNO like people in Hong Kong, but without the full rights of a citizen.
Wolfenstein98k 5y ago
Wonderful story, thanks for sharing!! Good luck finding your home. I am Australian and can recommend Australia wholeheartedly, although I know we make immigration thoroughly difficult.
- peterburkimsher 5y ago
  My girlfriend went to Australia on Working Holiday for 2 years, and enjoyed it a lot. Personally I didn't like needing to have a Resident Return Visa, or losing PR after living overseas. So I preferred New Zealand, and now I'm working at Fisher & Paykel Healthcare, I feel quite settled here for the foreseeable future. I'll definitely come to visit though!
tdhttt 5y ago
Interesting story! During my short stay at CERN, I lived in an apartment in Pays de Gex as well. Cycling across the border twice a day is fun! (The border is not very bike-friendly though)

hunter-2 5y ago

Such a fascinating story! Thank you

nitendoraku 5y ago

Presumably if you didn't achieve residency elsewhere any potential wife would have some status which could be passed onto the kids?

peterburkimsher 5y ago
Not if she's in the same situation, like most classmates and other Geneva people. What if my temporary work visa gets denied? If I had a family, I could end up unemployed, deported, and separated from wife and kids. Those kids would grow up without a father around, increasing their chances of divorce. It would be disastrous. Would I rather choose a wife based on her nationality, or go through the long, gruelling process of trying to earn it? My girlfriend is from Taiwan, and despite its many flaws, the Immigration system is really my only hope for getting the prerequisites to start a family.
gumby 5y ago
In some countries nationality status can only be passed through paternity, not maternity. There might still be some countries that require that a child be born physically within the country as well, though I don’t track it.

taejo 5y ago

Don't most countries grant citizenship to children born on their territory who aren't eligible for any other citizenship? I've heard of cases where the children had a hard time proving that to be the case (the embassy of the parents' state of citizenship would neither grant citizenship nor certify non-citizenship) but I didn't realise one could be completely ineligible for any citizenship from birth in a western country.

peterburkimsher 5y ago
If they're not eligible for any other citizenship, you're right, I would be able to apply for them to have a special grant of nationality. However, I would like me, a future wife, and potential future children to all have the right to live in the same country. If those kids had a Swiss passport, but my visa to Switzerland got denied, I'd end up separated from them. This is happening to many British families from the area who hadn't tried to get a second EU citizenship. Also, those kids would have to do military service for Switzerland (or Austria, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore... many countries) and learn to kill foreigners. As a foreigner, there's a conflict of interest - I'd rather not have children be forced to kill me.
- names_are_hard 5y ago
  > As a foreigner, there's a conflict of interest - I'd rather not have children be forced to kill me. I'm not sure how seriously you meant this, but that seems a little exaggerated. If your kids are drafted into service in another Western country than you hold citizenship, the odds that they would find themselves fighting a war against your country are slim. And even if it does happen, they'd likely find themselves transferred or exempted on account of a parent being one of the enemy. On top of that, there are an abundance of non-combat roles for draftees - here in Israel you can spend your mandatory service programming computers, driving or fixing trucks, coordinating international communication with countries that are only semi-friendly (maybe that of your parents, since you speak the language!), stapling papers together with no apparent purpose other than government bureaucracy, supervising a kitchen, investigating higher-ups in the military for fraud and corruption (internal police), diffusing bombs, helping with Covid testing/ vaccine logistics, or singing in a choir. (I have met people who did most all of those things. If you don't want to kill people you have many other options.) On some level, any participation in the organization is indirectly supporting the war effort, but so is paying taxes. Would you be against your children paying taxes to a country other than your own?

seszett 5y ago

> The problem of growing up there is that I can't be Swiss - my parents weren't resident. I can't be French either - I wasn't born there. So my passport is British by descent. Children cannot be British from me, because I wasn't born in the UK. If I wanted to continue living in Geneva, children would be stateless. If you have lived in France for the past 5 years (and still live there) you can get French citizenship. If you have obtained a diploma in a French university, you only need to have lived in France for the past 2 years. If you have moved since then and don't live in France anymore, it might be too late though (unless you move back to France and wait 2 or 5 years). (Also if you have siblings with French nationality, maybe if they were born in France after you were born in Switzerland, you are already technically French but have to claim your nationality).

peterburkimsher 5y ago
Moving away and moving back again is the situation of my friend Drew, who had the same situation (with US and Canadian parents, but born in Switzerland and living in France). He went to university in the UK, and returned to live in France and work in Switzerland. The processing time means that 5 years is actually 7 years or more. My brother tried to apply for French nationality after his 18th birthday before going to university, but the application process is so slow that he wasn't interviewed until several years into his studies. The French immigration officials didn't like that he wasn't living there, so they deferred his application until he returned (and he chose not to return, but went to Australia instead). It may have also been complicated by going to the International School of Geneva in Switzerland, rather than a local French school. I don't have any other siblings born in France, and my mum is past the age of childbearing unfortunately! My parents were able to naturalise and become French after 34 years. They applied when my dad retired, and after about 2 years they finally got it, in the midst of the political troubles of the UK leaving the EU. There was some worry about whether my parents would even be allowed to continue living in the house they spent 25 years paying off a mortgage to own. They couldn't apply earlier because CERN is an international organisation and doesn't pay French tax, so my dad was only paying French tax after his retirement.

peterburkimsher 5y ago

Why not marry a British girl and live in the UK? Because I can never be truly British. 5 years from now, I hope to earn NZ nationality. Any children born overseas after that could have NZ citizenship by descent. But a British citizen by descent has no way to "upgrade" their citizenship - not even after living there for 5 years. So I could live in the UK for 20 years, but would never be allowed to have children in Geneva. A French person has more right to become British than I do! They could naturalise, I can't. I'm officially a "second-class citizen". A citizen, not a BNO like people in Hong Kong, but without the full rights of a citizen.

Wolfenstein98k 5y ago

Wonderful story, thanks for sharing!! Good luck finding your home. I am Australian and can recommend Australia wholeheartedly, although I know we make immigration thoroughly difficult.

peterburkimsher 5y ago
My girlfriend went to Australia on Working Holiday for 2 years, and enjoyed it a lot. Personally I didn't like needing to have a Resident Return Visa, or losing PR after living overseas. So I preferred New Zealand, and now I'm working at Fisher & Paykel Healthcare, I feel quite settled here for the foreseeable future. I'll definitely come to visit though!

tdhttt 5y ago

Interesting story! During my short stay at CERN, I lived in an apartment in Pays de Gex as well. Cycling across the border twice a day is fun! (The border is not very bike-friendly though)