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> Well, assuming the brain is somewhat similar to a computer, then there would exist a separation between "brain hardware" and "brain software". And both the a

> Well, assuming the brain is somewhat similar to a computer, then there would exist a separation between "brain hardware" and "brain software". And both the assumption and conclusions are bizarre. There is no such distinction in the brain and the distinction in, physical man-made, hardware is also not so clear.

tsimionescu 5y ago
> There is no such distinction in the brain How do you know this? What else would the brain be if not a computer, and if you agree that it is a computer, why do you believe it doesn't have some equivalent of "software"? > the distinction in, physical man-made, hardware is also not so clear Sure, the distinction is somewhat fuzzy, though there can be clear cut cases as well.
- Blikkentrekker 5y ago
  > How do you know this? What else would the brain be if not a computer, and if you agree that it is a computer, why do you believe it doesn't have some equivalent of "software"? Because not all computers have this distinction, the first man-made computers did not have this distinction and the distinction still isn't that clear. “software” is simply the part the end-user is expected to be able to change. The F.S.F. simply defines it as everything stored in writable memory, but the distinction between writable and nonwritable memory is not even so clear. The human brain doesn't have a distinction between writable and nonwritable memory, and memory is implemented in circuitry itself. One can build a computer even today that has no distinction between software and hardware.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Well, any computer ultimately executes a program (a computation, to be more accurate), whether it is hard-wired in the hardware (as in an ASIC) or not. If you create an ASIC to compute 1 + 1 and it outputs 2, but you later find out that you needed an ASIC that computed 1 - 1, I would not call that a hardware problem, because the hardware is doing exactly what it was supposed to do - it's just not useful to you. A hardware problem is one where your 1+1 ASIC is outputting 3 when it gets hot enough, or one where the ASIC is not starting at all. Another piece of evidence that suggests to me that certain psychiatric conditions originate not in the physical brain itself but more in the "computation" (what I called a software error earlier) is the way people can be trapped into cults or other abusive relationships, where they start exhibiting signs of mental illness without any direct physical changes (that is, no diet changes, no physical violence, no irradiation etc.). The reason why I consider this distinction is important is that, if I am right, then there must be psychiatric conditions that should be fixable through discussion and improvements in thinking (therapy), and there must also be psychiatric conditions that can't be fixed in this way. We know for sure that the second category exists, as some psychiatric symptoms are the result of tumors in the brain and elsewhere in the body; the first category is slightly less clear, thought therapy is definitely an important part of many treatment regimens, with clinical data backing up its use. The biggest problem today is that we can't reliably tell, in most cases, which type of disease you may have, and so which approach is appropriate.

tsimionescu 5y ago

> There is no such distinction in the brain How do you know this? What else would the brain be if not a computer, and if you agree that it is a computer, why do you believe it doesn't have some equivalent of "software"? > the distinction in, physical man-made, hardware is also not so clear Sure, the distinction is somewhat fuzzy, though there can be clear cut cases as well.

Blikkentrekker 5y ago
> How do you know this? What else would the brain be if not a computer, and if you agree that it is a computer, why do you believe it doesn't have some equivalent of "software"? Because not all computers have this distinction, the first man-made computers did not have this distinction and the distinction still isn't that clear. “software” is simply the part the end-user is expected to be able to change. The F.S.F. simply defines it as everything stored in writable memory, but the distinction between writable and nonwritable memory is not even so clear. The human brain doesn't have a distinction between writable and nonwritable memory, and memory is implemented in circuitry itself. One can build a computer even today that has no distinction between software and hardware.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Well, any computer ultimately executes a program (a computation, to be more accurate), whether it is hard-wired in the hardware (as in an ASIC) or not. If you create an ASIC to compute 1 + 1 and it outputs 2, but you later find out that you needed an ASIC that computed 1 - 1, I would not call that a hardware problem, because the hardware is doing exactly what it was supposed to do - it's just not useful to you. A hardware problem is one where your 1+1 ASIC is outputting 3 when it gets hot enough, or one where the ASIC is not starting at all. Another piece of evidence that suggests to me that certain psychiatric conditions originate not in the physical brain itself but more in the "computation" (what I called a software error earlier) is the way people can be trapped into cults or other abusive relationships, where they start exhibiting signs of mental illness without any direct physical changes (that is, no diet changes, no physical violence, no irradiation etc.). The reason why I consider this distinction is important is that, if I am right, then there must be psychiatric conditions that should be fixable through discussion and improvements in thinking (therapy), and there must also be psychiatric conditions that can't be fixed in this way. We know for sure that the second category exists, as some psychiatric symptoms are the result of tumors in the brain and elsewhere in the body; the first category is slightly less clear, thought therapy is definitely an important part of many treatment regimens, with clinical data backing up its use. The biggest problem today is that we can't reliably tell, in most cases, which type of disease you may have, and so which approach is appropriate.