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I agree about trying not to say things that are hurtful, but surely you understand the difference in making a defamatory remark about a minority or oppressed gr

by jjeaff 6y ago

I agree about trying not to say things that are hurtful, but surely you understand the difference in making a defamatory remark about a minority or oppressed group vs a similar remark about a majority group that holds most of the wealth and power?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
brightball 6y ago
What is the difference?
- jjeaff 6y ago
  One is punching down. The other is punching up, or at least laterally.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
arp242 6y ago
I think this entire mindset is wrong. I have no wealth nor power, I'm just a bloke trying to get by and struggling in life just like everyone else, not always equally successful I might add. Groups of people are comprised individuals, with large degrees of variation in any group. Using averages can be important for some things, but context and nuance matters a lot. Not every white person "holds most of the wealth and power". Most don't have any. Perhaps it increases you chances of acquiring wealth or power, but that's a completely different thing than supposedly holding it just because of some "membership" based on ethnicity, religion, sex, or anything else. This is such a narrow view of the world; undoubtedly it makes sense if you're raised in some urban middle-class family, but a lot of white people's experiences are vastly different from that, and not only are these experiences ignored, they're met with strong hostility. Why do you think rural US, often impoverished white communities who certainly didn't get the best deal, are so hostile to all this kind of stuff? Hell, even "racism" (for lack of a better term) is a thing, "three nippled inbred cousin fucker from Alabama" and all that.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  I grew up middle class, rural, and southern. So I don't have all the privileges in the world. But at the same time, I know that the privilege I lack is not because I am white. That is why when someone makes a negative comment about white people, it has very little affect on me. But hearing offensive comments/jokes about rednecks when I moved out west, that hurt a little, because there is some history behind that and maybe even a little truth. And that fact that I get lumped in with that stereotypical redneck idea is a bit hurtful. But it's nothing like the history behind being Black in America. So no, it's not the same thing. Because context matters and who is saying it to whom matters.
  - JPKab 6y ago
    Context always matters but context isn't fixed at your national level. If you get jumped by several guys from an oppressed group at that moment in time and in that place they have a lot more power than you do. Just like in code that context exist within the broader global context where you correctly point out that there are power differentials. I also grew up in the south like you did but I grew up in a trailer park. Kids like you with houses on the bus made fun of kids getting on from the trailer park. My point is that socioeconomic status is dramatically more predictive of failure or success in the United States than race is. Geographic location is also a huge predictor. If we're going to reduce things down to one dimension we should focus on class.
    - arp242 6y ago
      Sure, I don't really disagree with any of that; that this entire "Muslim test" works in the first place is because it substitutes it with a group that is disadvantaged in some way, and it "feels more wrong". But it's still "punching", whether it's punching "up", "down", or "side-ways" doesn't strike me as especially important. Maybe "punching down" is "more bad", but IMHO both are bad and we shouldn't do either. Yet it's still not only commonly done, but also socially accepted. "stop whining, it's not as bad as [..]" doesn't make it okay (not what you said, but some people have, indeed, this is essentially what the entire "#NotAllMen" meme is).
    - 6y ago
vxNsr 6y ago
This punching down nonsense ignores the fact that hate and bigotry has to start somewhere, if you think insults against a certain oppressed minority significantly contribute to more bigotry then it doesn’t really make sense to argue that “well they’re doing well right now so it’s ok” Bec if you keep up those insults by your own logic you will eventually be punching down. Why create that dynamic? It’s kinda like the ppl who say insults have power and then in the same breath say ACAB or “Kill the Pigs” if you believe words are powerful and can turn into actions why are you saying such inflammatory hateful things?
- jjeaff 6y ago
  I don't think I or anyone else in this thread was arguing that insults to any group are good or even ok. Just that there is a difference between punching up vs punching down. There is a difference because insults hurt when there is a history behind them. Just like a white guy calling a white guy the 'n' word doesn't hurt nearly as much as calling a Black guy that same name.
nomdep 6y ago
No difference, only a racist would say otherwise.

by jjeaff 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

brightball 6y ago

What is the difference?

jjeaff 6y ago
One is punching down. The other is punching up, or at least laterally.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

arp242 6y ago

I think this entire mindset is wrong. I have no wealth nor power, I'm just a bloke trying to get by and struggling in life just like everyone else, not always equally successful I might add. Groups of people are comprised individuals, with large degrees of variation in any group. Using averages can be important for some things, but context and nuance matters a lot. Not every white person "holds most of the wealth and power". Most don't have any. Perhaps it increases you chances of acquiring wealth or power, but that's a completely different thing than supposedly holding it just because of some "membership" based on ethnicity, religion, sex, or anything else. This is such a narrow view of the world; undoubtedly it makes sense if you're raised in some urban middle-class family, but a lot of white people's experiences are vastly different from that, and not only are these experiences ignored, they're met with strong hostility. Why do you think rural US, often impoverished white communities who certainly didn't get the best deal, are so hostile to all this kind of stuff? Hell, even "racism" (for lack of a better term) is a thing, "three nippled inbred cousin fucker from Alabama" and all that.

jjeaff 6y ago
I grew up middle class, rural, and southern. So I don't have all the privileges in the world. But at the same time, I know that the privilege I lack is not because I am white. That is why when someone makes a negative comment about white people, it has very little affect on me. But hearing offensive comments/jokes about rednecks when I moved out west, that hurt a little, because there is some history behind that and maybe even a little truth. And that fact that I get lumped in with that stereotypical redneck idea is a bit hurtful. But it's nothing like the history behind being Black in America. So no, it's not the same thing. Because context matters and who is saying it to whom matters.
- JPKab 6y ago
  Context always matters but context isn't fixed at your national level. If you get jumped by several guys from an oppressed group at that moment in time and in that place they have a lot more power than you do. Just like in code that context exist within the broader global context where you correctly point out that there are power differentials. I also grew up in the south like you did but I grew up in a trailer park. Kids like you with houses on the bus made fun of kids getting on from the trailer park. My point is that socioeconomic status is dramatically more predictive of failure or success in the United States than race is. Geographic location is also a huge predictor. If we're going to reduce things down to one dimension we should focus on class.
  - arp242 6y ago
    Sure, I don't really disagree with any of that; that this entire "Muslim test" works in the first place is because it substitutes it with a group that is disadvantaged in some way, and it "feels more wrong". But it's still "punching", whether it's punching "up", "down", or "side-ways" doesn't strike me as especially important. Maybe "punching down" is "more bad", but IMHO both are bad and we shouldn't do either. Yet it's still not only commonly done, but also socially accepted. "stop whining, it's not as bad as [..]" doesn't make it okay (not what you said, but some people have, indeed, this is essentially what the entire "#NotAllMen" meme is).
  - 6y ago

vxNsr 6y ago

This punching down nonsense ignores the fact that hate and bigotry has to start somewhere, if you think insults against a certain oppressed minority significantly contribute to more bigotry then it doesn’t really make sense to argue that “well they’re doing well right now so it’s ok” Bec if you keep up those insults by your own logic you will eventually be punching down. Why create that dynamic? It’s kinda like the ppl who say insults have power and then in the same breath say ACAB or “Kill the Pigs” if you believe words are powerful and can turn into actions why are you saying such inflammatory hateful things?

jjeaff 6y ago
I don't think I or anyone else in this thread was arguing that insults to any group are good or even ok. Just that there is a difference between punching up vs punching down. There is a difference because insults hurt when there is a history behind them. Just like a white guy calling a white guy the 'n' word doesn't hurt nearly as much as calling a Black guy that same name.

nomdep 6y ago

No difference, only a racist would say otherwise.