9 ms·

Maybe. But this is (was) a 60-person company. That's about the size of the company I'm currently working at. In other words, you should know everyone and intera

Maybe. But this is (was) a 60-person company. That's about the size of the company I'm currently working at. In other words, you should know everyone and interact with a sizeable chunk of these people somewhat regularly. It strikes me as very odd that you would suddenly so fundamentally distrust your co-workers with whom you share so much. But I'm also not in the US and maybe this is just the current climate over there. (Or maybe it also shows that being a fully-remote company can have downsides, such as coworkers not socialising enough and therefore not trusting each other? Who knows. DHH certainly has championed the "remote work for everyone" approach countless times.)

vcavallo 6y ago
> It strikes me as very odd that you would suddenly so fundamentally distrust your co-workers with whom you share so much. But I'm also not in the US and maybe this is just the current climate over there. Yes, it absolutely is the climate here. it’s awful. tribalism, division, distrust and eagerness to demonize anyone who doesn’t tow your line. we’re doomed
moduspol 6y ago
We also may be reading a lot into how large this committee was. If I were at a company of ~58 people, and ~20 of them were forming a DE&I committee to evaluate the company's vendor relationships, speakers, etc., I'd be tempted to join just to get the potential target off of my back. They're not going to fire 1/3 of the workforce, after all.
- thrownaway564 6y ago
  Our group has hours of meetings every week. One coworker was PIPd and he immediately joined the group. Less work and off pip now!
  - edoceo 6y ago
    a true hacker :)
thrownaway564 6y ago
The culture here is getting bad. We have an "inclusion council" that hands out these diktats. The word ban list (not blacklist!) is approaching 100 words including husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy. Worse part is we're a security company edit: "here" is okta, not basecamp
- prepend 6y ago
  Why hacker?
  - thrownaway564 6y ago
    their explanation: it's "gendered and not inclusive"
    - arp242 6y ago
      And what's wrong with husband? Or housekeeping? How am I supposed to talk about my husband doing the housekeeping?
      - sithlord 6y ago
        you say "My Man Spouse is doing the domestic science"
        steve_taylor 6y ago
        Don’t assume their spouse’s gender. /s
      - _-david-_ 6y ago
        Not sure about housekeeping but husband is gendered so I assume that is the "problem".
    - bryik 6y ago
      "hacker" isn't gendered. > 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html
Consultant32452 6y ago
I work at a Fortune 500 company that has gone woke, complete with critical race theory training. I'm literally the only white person in my department. I'm the racial minority. Do you think any of the training even considered that a possibility? Before this change in the company I had never even noticed my race in relation to my coworkers and I absolutely hate them for bringing it to my attention and forcing me against my will to focus on the fact that I'm a racial minority. I've had employers destroy my retirement plan value (pension) and others try to avoid paying me. This feels much more depraved and personal because they are attacking me psychologically. I'm on my way out.
- rsanheim 6y ago
  Congratulations, you have an opportunity to experience what it feels like to work in tech as a person of color, or a woman, or any of the many other underrepresented groups in tech. Only those people experience every day at almost all companies, and can't escape it by leaving their existing company. Maybe see it as a chance to learn and grow instead of something to resent and run from?
  - ny2ko 6y ago
    +1. Couldn't have put this any better
  - ceras 6y ago
    As a URM in tech, that's not my own experience. There's rarely attention drawn to the fact that I'm a minority - and I like it that way. Heterogeneity is tough with this: some individuals like and benefit from initiatives that focus on their minority status, while others don't. No group is a monolith - individuals have different needs - not to mention that experiences can differ significantly, too. I think there's a very fine balance to strike where you want programs to reach the people who benefit -- and certainly leaders and co-workers who need to be more inclusive -- without making those you're trying to help feel uncomfortable by having it so front and center that those who'd like to sit out can't. It's a tough balance, and I've seen companies both go too far and not far enough. All this is to say I can imagine a situation where OP's environment really is making them more uncomfortable than what many (most?) URM's experience in the work place. Can't say for sure without knowing specifics, of course. It just isn't always a case of "more is better."
jdlshore 6y ago
> (Or maybe it also shows that being a fully-remote company can have downsides, such as coworkers not socialising enough and therefore not trusting each other? Who knows. DHH certainly has championed the "remote work for everyone" approach countless times.) I’d bet remote work was a strong contributor. People don’t form the same humanizing attachments remotely as they do in person, in my experience.
- wyclif 6y ago
  I agree. For the record, I am pro-remote work and was fully onboard long before COVID, but I also suspect that the erosion of social trust can be accelerated in a company by fully remote work. It's a tradeoff that a company can either handle badly or well. Did you read that comment about Basecamp employees "crying and screaming at their screens" after the Zoom meeting? That just sounds so much like people who are both venting their spleens and at the same time have no connection to their workplace.
  - jdlshore 6y ago
    Yep, that line in particular stood out to me. It sounds like there was a lot of assuming bad faith going on. For example, taking DHH’s refusal to take a stance as condoning bad behavior, when it looked to me like he was trying to listen rather than talk, and also blindsided. At the risk of armchair quarterbacking, the whole thing looks like a broken culture, and I get the impression nobody knew just how broken it was until now. Nor do I think any one person or action is to blame. I’d bet that it’s been festering for years. It’s a fascinating case study, though, and I’m glad we have a view into it.

vcavallo 6y ago

> It strikes me as very odd that you would suddenly so fundamentally distrust your co-workers with whom you share so much. But I'm also not in the US and maybe this is just the current climate over there. Yes, it absolutely is the climate here. it’s awful. tribalism, division, distrust and eagerness to demonize anyone who doesn’t tow your line. we’re doomed

moduspol 6y ago

We also may be reading a lot into how large this committee was. If I were at a company of ~58 people, and ~20 of them were forming a DE&I committee to evaluate the company's vendor relationships, speakers, etc., I'd be tempted to join just to get the potential target off of my back. They're not going to fire 1/3 of the workforce, after all.

thrownaway564 6y ago
Our group has hours of meetings every week. One coworker was PIPd and he immediately joined the group. Less work and off pip now!
- edoceo 6y ago
  a true hacker :)

thrownaway564 6y ago

The culture here is getting bad. We have an "inclusion council" that hands out these diktats. The word ban list (not blacklist!) is approaching 100 words including husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy. Worse part is we're a security company edit: "here" is okta, not basecamp

prepend 6y ago
Why hacker?
- thrownaway564 6y ago
  their explanation: it's "gendered and not inclusive"
  - arp242 6y ago
    And what's wrong with husband? Or housekeeping? How am I supposed to talk about my husband doing the housekeeping?
    - sithlord 6y ago
      you say "My Man Spouse is doing the domestic science"
      - steve_taylor 6y ago
        Don’t assume their spouse’s gender. /s
    - _-david-_ 6y ago
      Not sure about housekeeping but husband is gendered so I assume that is the "problem".
  - bryik 6y ago
    "hacker" isn't gendered. > 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html

Consultant32452 6y ago

I work at a Fortune 500 company that has gone woke, complete with critical race theory training. I'm literally the only white person in my department. I'm the racial minority. Do you think any of the training even considered that a possibility? Before this change in the company I had never even noticed my race in relation to my coworkers and I absolutely hate them for bringing it to my attention and forcing me against my will to focus on the fact that I'm a racial minority. I've had employers destroy my retirement plan value (pension) and others try to avoid paying me. This feels much more depraved and personal because they are attacking me psychologically. I'm on my way out.

rsanheim 6y ago
Congratulations, you have an opportunity to experience what it feels like to work in tech as a person of color, or a woman, or any of the many other underrepresented groups in tech. Only those people experience every day at almost all companies, and can't escape it by leaving their existing company. Maybe see it as a chance to learn and grow instead of something to resent and run from?
- ny2ko 6y ago
  +1. Couldn't have put this any better
- ceras 6y ago
  As a URM in tech, that's not my own experience. There's rarely attention drawn to the fact that I'm a minority - and I like it that way. Heterogeneity is tough with this: some individuals like and benefit from initiatives that focus on their minority status, while others don't. No group is a monolith - individuals have different needs - not to mention that experiences can differ significantly, too. I think there's a very fine balance to strike where you want programs to reach the people who benefit -- and certainly leaders and co-workers who need to be more inclusive -- without making those you're trying to help feel uncomfortable by having it so front and center that those who'd like to sit out can't. It's a tough balance, and I've seen companies both go too far and not far enough. All this is to say I can imagine a situation where OP's environment really is making them more uncomfortable than what many (most?) URM's experience in the work place. Can't say for sure without knowing specifics, of course. It just isn't always a case of "more is better."

jdlshore 6y ago

> (Or maybe it also shows that being a fully-remote company can have downsides, such as coworkers not socialising enough and therefore not trusting each other? Who knows. DHH certainly has championed the "remote work for everyone" approach countless times.) I’d bet remote work was a strong contributor. People don’t form the same humanizing attachments remotely as they do in person, in my experience.

wyclif 6y ago
I agree. For the record, I am pro-remote work and was fully onboard long before COVID, but I also suspect that the erosion of social trust can be accelerated in a company by fully remote work. It's a tradeoff that a company can either handle badly or well. Did you read that comment about Basecamp employees "crying and screaming at their screens" after the Zoom meeting? That just sounds so much like people who are both venting their spleens and at the same time have no connection to their workplace.
- jdlshore 6y ago
  Yep, that line in particular stood out to me. It sounds like there was a lot of assuming bad faith going on. For example, taking DHH’s refusal to take a stance as condoning bad behavior, when it looked to me like he was trying to listen rather than talk, and also blindsided. At the risk of armchair quarterbacking, the whole thing looks like a broken culture, and I get the impression nobody knew just how broken it was until now. Nor do I think any one person or action is to blame. I’d bet that it’s been festering for years. It’s a fascinating case study, though, and I’m glad we have a view into it.