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It's interesting to read so many comments against marathon sessions. I can't imagine reading the same set of comments 20 years ago (when I was young and a freq

It's interesting to read so many comments against marathon sessions. I can't imagine reading the same set of comments 20 years ago (when I was young and a frequent marathoner, as were my teammates). Is this indicative of a cultural shift in the industry? Or collective learning? Or might it just be that no 20 somethings are commenting here and it's just a sample bias resulting from older commentators? Do 20 something developers today feel that marathoning is a wasted effort, or do they tend to think it is the best way to get things done? BTW I think I would agree with the comments now, but even 10 years ago I might have been dismissive.

0xFACEFEED 5y ago
> Is this indicative of a cultural shift in the industry? Yes I think the industry is changing. In my anecdotal experience, the quality of programmers has taken a nose dive. I think part of the reason is that it's been a lucrative industry for long enough that parents have had time to coach their children into the industry. In the early-mid 2000s (when I cut my teeth) and especially in the 80s/90s (from what I hear) you came across more "hacker" types that were doing this work for the love of doing it. Yea you still had the "Initech" type companies that would outsource/etc but cutting edge programming work was a lot easier to find. These days I'm seeing more and more people that treat programming as a "job", not a "passion". Obviously I think this is a good thing for people, in general. But I also think that, while the potential for software is at its highest, the actual relative quality of software is at its absolute lowest. This is due in large part to the bad quality of software engineering these days. Again, very anecdotal.
nefitty 5y ago
This “Type-A” hustle mentality resonates with me. I do see lots of people pushing back on it, ie ridiculing JD’s that mention passion, emphasizing work-life balance, disdain for “brogrammer” culture, etc. This seems especially prevalent on Twitter. My personal life doesn’t allow me to do marathons. If I was single I would probably be hauling ass all day every day. I understand the health implications, but the desire to be “the best” or to be “10x” clouds my long-term vision. I want to dominate like rms, Carmack, Beej, Eich, etc. That might put some people off, but technically, those same critics are my competition. If you don’t want to put in the same hours as me, that’s cool, but there aren’t an infinite amount of $200k+ roles in the world.
- 0xFACEFEED 5y ago
  I've always thought of brute force work (like marathons) as compensation for not being as gifted as rms, Carmack, etc.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    Yes! Unfortunately I was not born with Vitalik Buterin’s innate genius, so I understand I have to move myself forward more mechanically.
  - meheleventyone 5y ago
    Also part of the domination of those characters is simply being around early enough to get famous. There are loads of people as gifted if not more so who will never see the limelight particularly these days where so many people are working on personal brand building or straight up grifting. Depending on your own goals brute force or giftedness might not even be necessary let alone sufficient. Particularly when it comes to external validation.
- lanstin 5y ago
  So to be clear, the myth of the 10x programmer is the person that learns Japanese when you start working with Japan as a market, sits around a lot talking about various types of teas, has an eidetic memory, has 3 months to write a major new service, and just thinks about it for like 2.5 months then comes in and types it in, in 30 hours. Not some well meaning person that makes up for a lack of skill by longer hours. Typing the wrong code in at 10 pm is harming the whole company. Hardworking and well-meaning programmers typing out a lot of code can be a disaster. The myth is "Much better the smart but lazy genius who thinks till the right solution is intuitively obvious." Now I've know a few people like that, but in general it is a myth. But at least get the right myth. Long hours are not part of 10x myth. I mean unless you mean loves math/computer/etc. and is always learning weird complicated stuff. But that's "taking care of your mental flexibility and strength" not "working long hours to meet a deadline."
  - nefitty 5y ago
_carbyau_ 5y ago
I suspect more people: - see the rich vs poor divide - see what it took for the rich to get there. And it isn't just "hard work". Plenty of people work hard at all levels of life. But the "hard work as a virtue" meme is dying.
darkerside 5y ago
When you don't know anything (20-something), you need the marathon session to learn as well as to be productive. When you know more, you are able to apply leverage to do more in less time, and a marathon session is a waste of time. IMO, telling young folks not to push themselves is intellectually pulling up the ladder behind ourselves.

0xFACEFEED 5y ago

> Is this indicative of a cultural shift in the industry? Yes I think the industry is changing. In my anecdotal experience, the quality of programmers has taken a nose dive. I think part of the reason is that it's been a lucrative industry for long enough that parents have had time to coach their children into the industry. In the early-mid 2000s (when I cut my teeth) and especially in the 80s/90s (from what I hear) you came across more "hacker" types that were doing this work for the love of doing it. Yea you still had the "Initech" type companies that would outsource/etc but cutting edge programming work was a lot easier to find. These days I'm seeing more and more people that treat programming as a "job", not a "passion". Obviously I think this is a good thing for people, in general. But I also think that, while the potential for software is at its highest, the actual relative quality of software is at its absolute lowest. This is due in large part to the bad quality of software engineering these days. Again, very anecdotal.

nefitty 5y ago

This “Type-A” hustle mentality resonates with me. I do see lots of people pushing back on it, ie ridiculing JD’s that mention passion, emphasizing work-life balance, disdain for “brogrammer” culture, etc. This seems especially prevalent on Twitter. My personal life doesn’t allow me to do marathons. If I was single I would probably be hauling ass all day every day. I understand the health implications, but the desire to be “the best” or to be “10x” clouds my long-term vision. I want to dominate like rms, Carmack, Beej, Eich, etc. That might put some people off, but technically, those same critics are my competition. If you don’t want to put in the same hours as me, that’s cool, but there aren’t an infinite amount of $200k+ roles in the world.

0xFACEFEED 5y ago
I've always thought of brute force work (like marathons) as compensation for not being as gifted as rms, Carmack, etc.
- nefitty 5y ago
  Yes! Unfortunately I was not born with Vitalik Buterin’s innate genius, so I understand I have to move myself forward more mechanically.
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  Also part of the domination of those characters is simply being around early enough to get famous. There are loads of people as gifted if not more so who will never see the limelight particularly these days where so many people are working on personal brand building or straight up grifting. Depending on your own goals brute force or giftedness might not even be necessary let alone sufficient. Particularly when it comes to external validation.
lanstin 5y ago
So to be clear, the myth of the 10x programmer is the person that learns Japanese when you start working with Japan as a market, sits around a lot talking about various types of teas, has an eidetic memory, has 3 months to write a major new service, and just thinks about it for like 2.5 months then comes in and types it in, in 30 hours. Not some well meaning person that makes up for a lack of skill by longer hours. Typing the wrong code in at 10 pm is harming the whole company. Hardworking and well-meaning programmers typing out a lot of code can be a disaster. The myth is "Much better the smart but lazy genius who thinks till the right solution is intuitively obvious." Now I've know a few people like that, but in general it is a myth. But at least get the right myth. Long hours are not part of 10x myth. I mean unless you mean loves math/computer/etc. and is always learning weird complicated stuff. But that's "taking care of your mental flexibility and strength" not "working long hours to meet a deadline."
- nefitty 5y ago

_carbyau_ 5y ago

I suspect more people: - see the rich vs poor divide - see what it took for the rich to get there. And it isn't just "hard work". Plenty of people work hard at all levels of life. But the "hard work as a virtue" meme is dying.

darkerside 5y ago

When you don't know anything (20-something), you need the marathon session to learn as well as to be productive. When you know more, you are able to apply leverage to do more in less time, and a marathon session is a waste of time. IMO, telling young folks not to push themselves is intellectually pulling up the ladder behind ourselves.