5 ms·

These aren’t either or situations. Acting as if the only options are an abusive marriage or prostitution is really misleading. There are plenty of ways to ince

These aren’t either or situations. Acting as if the only options are an abusive marriage or prostitution is really misleading. There are plenty of ways to incentivize monogamy, disincentivize divorce, and yet still allow for individual freedom. Why haven’t these been tested? I’ll suggest because like all movements, the gender equality movement has been driven largely by extremist activists (who gain social power) and corporations (who gain more workers and consumers), not by average people.

toyg 5y ago
> Why haven’t these been tested? Have they not? Marriage is widely incentivized in most societies. The UK reality at the moment, for example, heavily punishes singles: the housing markets optimizes for two incomes, pricing out singles; the taxing system favours spreading income over two individuals; and you have plenty of other marriage-related allowances. I'd be surprised if this was significantly different in the US. The reality is that, as soon as you give people the choice, a good chunk of them will take it.
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  I wouldn’t say that it’s incentivized at all. Weddings are expensive, divorces are financially disastrous (yet easy to initiate), and a sizable segment of the population thinks the idea of marriage is “uncool”, for lack of a better word. Things like adultery are nearly outright encouraged in Netflix shows and novels. It doesn’t surprise me at all that many people look at marriage as it currently stands and just say, no thanks. This goes against pretty much every society, historically. https://www.ranker.com/list/best-tv-shows-about-cheating/ranker-tv https://www.ranker.com/list/best-tv-shows-about-cheating/ran...
  - toyg 5y ago
    I fear that words like "easy" or "expensive" in this realm are difficult to evaluate objectively. Weddings, for example, are not expensive, if you consider them as a bureaucratic act: in most countries, it's just a few forms to fill him with minimal fees attached. However, if you impose on them oversized cultural expectations (which come from "netflix shows of the past"...) of white horses, diamonds, banquets and so on, then yeah, it's an expensive act. Maybe, if one wanted more weddings, one should support reducing some of these artificial obstacles...? > a sizable segment of the population thinks the idea of marriage is “uncool” That's always been true, as showed in literature of the past.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    We spent around $700 on our wedding. Front yard ceremony, $150-200 for the justice of the peace, trays of food from the local BBQ place, more wine, beer, and drinks than our 25 or so closest friends could consume. Getting married isn't inherently expensive. People make it so because an entire industry is optimized around convincing you to spend more on a dress than we spent on an entire wedding.
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      Culture also instills in girls and young women that it must be their perfect day. Family obligations and expectations can add more pressure.
    - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
      You didn't have a friend do the internet church thing to become an officiant? Is that no longer possible?
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        It is a thing still here. The friend who we’d have asked to do that (and has done it before) was unable to attend our ceremony, so we just went down the city’s list and picked someone.
    - ceilingcorner 5y ago
      Weddings are expensive because historically they were seen as extremely important. This is observable in almost every culture and predates modern consumer culture.
- RhysU 5y ago
  Comically, going from a one-income household to a two-income household to a three-income household to a ... one arrives at the flat tax.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
xiphias2 5y ago
> Why haven’t these been tested? They were tested and perfected a hundred thousand years ago when humans were living in tribes. In a tribe shaming people for being polygamous was part of the system to keep some checks and balances. With people moving to cities and dating online, those checks and balances are suppressed, and the market balance shifted towards polygamy (few high value man date many women).
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  I haven’t studied the anthropology, but is it true that people in tribal societies tend to be monogamous?
  - xiphias2 5y ago
    The usual statistic that we hear from people who study genes is that about half of the men are fathers to women. It's a significantly different statistic from OKCupid / Tinder matches, which is closer to 80-20, and the fact that less young men are having sex than before suggests that it translates to real life.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    My thought is that enforced monogamy came with the invention of agriculture, and wasn’t really a thing in Hunter-gatherer societies, but I could be completely wrong about that. If true though, the fact that most of us don’t work in agriculture any more could mean that we are in the midst of a sea change in relationships. I’m too old to say I’ll be around to see how it ends up, but some of the youngest here might be around to see it.
- kaba0 5y ago
  That doesn’t even follow logically. Pairing one man with one woman will remove one of each from circulation. With polygamy being more accepted means that basically noone gets removed from circulation, a women can have more than one partner, increasing chances...
  - 5y ago

toyg 5y ago

> Why haven’t these been tested? Have they not? Marriage is widely incentivized in most societies. The UK reality at the moment, for example, heavily punishes singles: the housing markets optimizes for two incomes, pricing out singles; the taxing system favours spreading income over two individuals; and you have plenty of other marriage-related allowances. I'd be surprised if this was significantly different in the US. The reality is that, as soon as you give people the choice, a good chunk of them will take it.

ceilingcorner 5y ago
I wouldn’t say that it’s incentivized at all. Weddings are expensive, divorces are financially disastrous (yet easy to initiate), and a sizable segment of the population thinks the idea of marriage is “uncool”, for lack of a better word. Things like adultery are nearly outright encouraged in Netflix shows and novels. It doesn’t surprise me at all that many people look at marriage as it currently stands and just say, no thanks. This goes against pretty much every society, historically. https://www.ranker.com/list/best-tv-shows-about-cheating/ranker-tv https://www.ranker.com/list/best-tv-shows-about-cheating/ran...
- toyg 5y ago
  I fear that words like "easy" or "expensive" in this realm are difficult to evaluate objectively. Weddings, for example, are not expensive, if you consider them as a bureaucratic act: in most countries, it's just a few forms to fill him with minimal fees attached. However, if you impose on them oversized cultural expectations (which come from "netflix shows of the past"...) of white horses, diamonds, banquets and so on, then yeah, it's an expensive act. Maybe, if one wanted more weddings, one should support reducing some of these artificial obstacles...? > a sizable segment of the population thinks the idea of marriage is “uncool” That's always been true, as showed in literature of the past.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  We spent around $700 on our wedding. Front yard ceremony, $150-200 for the justice of the peace, trays of food from the local BBQ place, more wine, beer, and drinks than our 25 or so closest friends could consume. Getting married isn't inherently expensive. People make it so because an entire industry is optimized around convincing you to spend more on a dress than we spent on an entire wedding.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Culture also instills in girls and young women that it must be their perfect day. Family obligations and expectations can add more pressure.
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    You didn't have a friend do the internet church thing to become an officiant? Is that no longer possible?
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      It is a thing still here. The friend who we’d have asked to do that (and has done it before) was unable to attend our ceremony, so we just went down the city’s list and picked someone.
  - ceilingcorner 5y ago
    Weddings are expensive because historically they were seen as extremely important. This is observable in almost every culture and predates modern consumer culture.
RhysU 5y ago
Comically, going from a one-income household to a two-income household to a three-income household to a ... one arrives at the flat tax.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

xiphias2 5y ago

> Why haven’t these been tested? They were tested and perfected a hundred thousand years ago when humans were living in tribes. In a tribe shaming people for being polygamous was part of the system to keep some checks and balances. With people moving to cities and dating online, those checks and balances are suppressed, and the market balance shifted towards polygamy (few high value man date many women).

ceilingcorner 5y ago
I haven’t studied the anthropology, but is it true that people in tribal societies tend to be monogamous?
- xiphias2 5y ago
  The usual statistic that we hear from people who study genes is that about half of the men are fathers to women. It's a significantly different statistic from OKCupid / Tinder matches, which is closer to 80-20, and the fact that less young men are having sex than before suggests that it translates to real life.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  My thought is that enforced monogamy came with the invention of agriculture, and wasn’t really a thing in Hunter-gatherer societies, but I could be completely wrong about that. If true though, the fact that most of us don’t work in agriculture any more could mean that we are in the midst of a sea change in relationships. I’m too old to say I’ll be around to see how it ends up, but some of the youngest here might be around to see it.
kaba0 5y ago
That doesn’t even follow logically. Pairing one man with one woman will remove one of each from circulation. With polygamy being more accepted means that basically noone gets removed from circulation, a women can have more than one partner, increasing chances...
- 5y ago