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I know we joke about it a lot, but I think there's a serious case to be made that the Internet's ability to connect groups of previously unconnected people migh

I know we joke about it a lot, but I think there's a serious case to be made that the Internet's ability to connect groups of previously unconnected people might end up literally ending humanity, or at least severely setting humanity back from a human rights standpoint. "Incels" are one example of this that you're pointing out here, where a group of people who've always existed without name are now able to group together and create a feedback loop amongst themselves that results in literally mass murder.

waterhouse 6y ago
> create a feedback loop amongst themselves that results in literally mass murder. I dispute that causation. Mass murderers are extreme outliers that usually have identifiable mental problems, and I would say the primary cause of their behavior is those mental problems, not whatever particular thing they say triggered them. Also, even if you did show that a certain ideological group was significantly overrepresented among mass murderers, you would have to rule out the other methods of causation (e.g. this guy is a loner because of various problems, and he joined this group of loners because they welcomed him—doesn't mean the group caused him to go commit the murders, and in fact it's conceivable that being in the group reduces the likelihood of the potential murderers actually going and doing it).
- belorn 6y ago
  Reminds me of a case here in Sweden where a father was found guilty of attempted murder of his half year old child. Just hours before the attempt he had been at the hospital begging to be committed since he was hearing voices and he was scared that he might hurt someone, but the beds was full so he was sent home. Healthcare for mental health is still very much underdeveloped, especially when the patient is male. It is just easier to blame the individual.
  - TameAntelope 6y ago
    I think that's an extremely interesting take -- that with the advent of the Internet, we've created a vehicle for mental illness to metastasize, and the only real solution is to treat mental illness like we treat malaria or even COVID, and upgrade our global healthcare systems to handle the influx of this "new" disease variant. The analogy breaks down when you start to try and think of what our "vaccine" might be, though perhaps education can be a rough proxy. It's also possible there's nothing we can do, and we've reached a spread that is incurable...
    - kaba0 6y ago
      Except that it doesn’t spread that way? And that it had always been around. We have just started paying attention to it.
      - CRConrad 6y ago
        Maybe we notice it more because we're paying more attention to it... Or maybe because there actually is more of it, since it now can be transmitted more efficiently -- has become "contagious" in a way it wasn't before. Hard to tell which it is.
- ianai 6y ago
  I think the internet can act like an insulating force and for certain people a viscous feedback loop. Like it’s far more easy for certain types of personalities to call themselves “incel” and whine about it on the internet than get out of their bubble and talk to people. The insularly force is clearly amplifying other communities so this is probably “just another” instantiation of the same effect. Edit-I don’t know the best way to exit this problem. But I’d probably start with telling the disparate groups that their positions are not so abnormal and maybe they would be happier focusing on other things-like hobbies that require time offline. Have your “incel” days and have days you force yourself to do something, anything else than think that.
  - kaba0 6y ago
    As for a “solution”: I think social media should focus on instead of creating echo bubbles to connect distinct groups. Even in in-person, it is unhealthy to surround ourselves with same-minded people, and one should strive diverse circles in terms of opinion/background.
- dumbfoundded 6y ago
  New forms of mass communication can certainly create political instability. The connection between the rise of Nazi Germany and the increasing widespread radios in everyone's homes is an interesting link (1) (1) https://daily.jstor.org/an-affordable-radio-brought-nazi-propaganda-home/ https://daily.jstor.org/an-affordable-radio-brought-nazi-pro...
parineum 6y ago
Ironically, I think the internet's connection is causing the problem on both ends of the phenomenon. Dating apps allow women to expand their dating pool to people they would never encounter in everyday life. I have quite a few female friends and I've been around them while they're swiping around and they are absolutely brutal in a way that's not at all malicious. Then the regular (male) losers in that system can then all commiserate on 4Chan. I think a smaller dating pool forced women to give men who _seemed_ less ideal matches a chance and resulted in more successful relationships. I suspect that both men and women don't have any idea what would actually make a good relationship but they have a "type" that they like. With a limited pool, you could work through everyone of your type in a reasonable time frame. With a larger pool, it can take forever.
- CRConrad 6y ago
  > I have quite a few female friends and I've been around them while they're swiping around and they are absolutely brutal in a way that's not at all malicious. Depends on how you define "malicious", doesn't it?
  - parineum 6y ago
    I just mean that they're saying "no" to the slightest thing. And, really, they have to do that for time purposes. It's just kind of shocking how selective they can be and still be successful.

waterhouse 6y ago

> create a feedback loop amongst themselves that results in literally mass murder. I dispute that causation. Mass murderers are extreme outliers that usually have identifiable mental problems, and I would say the primary cause of their behavior is those mental problems, not whatever particular thing they say triggered them. Also, even if you did show that a certain ideological group was significantly overrepresented among mass murderers, you would have to rule out the other methods of causation (e.g. this guy is a loner because of various problems, and he joined this group of loners because they welcomed him—doesn't mean the group caused him to go commit the murders, and in fact it's conceivable that being in the group reduces the likelihood of the potential murderers actually going and doing it).

belorn 6y ago
Reminds me of a case here in Sweden where a father was found guilty of attempted murder of his half year old child. Just hours before the attempt he had been at the hospital begging to be committed since he was hearing voices and he was scared that he might hurt someone, but the beds was full so he was sent home. Healthcare for mental health is still very much underdeveloped, especially when the patient is male. It is just easier to blame the individual.
- TameAntelope 6y ago
  I think that's an extremely interesting take -- that with the advent of the Internet, we've created a vehicle for mental illness to metastasize, and the only real solution is to treat mental illness like we treat malaria or even COVID, and upgrade our global healthcare systems to handle the influx of this "new" disease variant. The analogy breaks down when you start to try and think of what our "vaccine" might be, though perhaps education can be a rough proxy. It's also possible there's nothing we can do, and we've reached a spread that is incurable...
  - kaba0 6y ago
    Except that it doesn’t spread that way? And that it had always been around. We have just started paying attention to it.
    - CRConrad 6y ago
      Maybe we notice it more because we're paying more attention to it... Or maybe because there actually is more of it, since it now can be transmitted more efficiently -- has become "contagious" in a way it wasn't before. Hard to tell which it is.
ianai 6y ago
I think the internet can act like an insulating force and for certain people a viscous feedback loop. Like it’s far more easy for certain types of personalities to call themselves “incel” and whine about it on the internet than get out of their bubble and talk to people. The insularly force is clearly amplifying other communities so this is probably “just another” instantiation of the same effect. Edit-I don’t know the best way to exit this problem. But I’d probably start with telling the disparate groups that their positions are not so abnormal and maybe they would be happier focusing on other things-like hobbies that require time offline. Have your “incel” days and have days you force yourself to do something, anything else than think that.
- kaba0 6y ago
  As for a “solution”: I think social media should focus on instead of creating echo bubbles to connect distinct groups. Even in in-person, it is unhealthy to surround ourselves with same-minded people, and one should strive diverse circles in terms of opinion/background.
dumbfoundded 6y ago
New forms of mass communication can certainly create political instability. The connection between the rise of Nazi Germany and the increasing widespread radios in everyone's homes is an interesting link (1) (1) https://daily.jstor.org/an-affordable-radio-brought-nazi-propaganda-home/ https://daily.jstor.org/an-affordable-radio-brought-nazi-pro...

parineum 6y ago

Ironically, I think the internet's connection is causing the problem on both ends of the phenomenon. Dating apps allow women to expand their dating pool to people they would never encounter in everyday life. I have quite a few female friends and I've been around them while they're swiping around and they are absolutely brutal in a way that's not at all malicious. Then the regular (male) losers in that system can then all commiserate on 4Chan. I think a smaller dating pool forced women to give men who _seemed_ less ideal matches a chance and resulted in more successful relationships. I suspect that both men and women don't have any idea what would actually make a good relationship but they have a "type" that they like. With a limited pool, you could work through everyone of your type in a reasonable time frame. With a larger pool, it can take forever.

CRConrad 6y ago
> I have quite a few female friends and I've been around them while they're swiping around and they are absolutely brutal in a way that's not at all malicious. Depends on how you define "malicious", doesn't it?
- parineum 6y ago
  I just mean that they're saying "no" to the slightest thing. And, really, they have to do that for time purposes. It's just kind of shocking how selective they can be and still be successful.