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Considering the year on year decrease in women who identify with the movement, its fairly clear anyone who would describe said movement as "reasonable" would no

Considering the year on year decrease in women who identify with the movement, its fairly clear anyone who would describe said movement as "reasonable" would no doubt hold the traits inherent in the movement that so many find despicable.

krastanov 5y ago
You are making some pretty wild misrepresentations of reality: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-century-after-women-gained-the-right-to-vote-majority-of-americans-see-work-to-do-on-gender-equality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-centu... The closest thing I can find to your interpretation is that women of color are less probable to adopt the term "feminist" because they are less probable to feel the movement has done enough for them. I do not know who has convinced you of an alternative definition of the word, but feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc".
- textgel 5y ago
  Literally the first google result of "women identifying as feminst" https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism And plenty more for the willing student; however an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement might understandably place some difficulty on those in need of finding these things. And funnily enough the definition of a group has nothing to do with how it behaves; or are you suddenly going to proudly identify as a mens rights activist? I suppose its just as well that naming North Korea a democratic peoples republic magically fixed the place overnight as well.
  - Kaze404 5y ago
    > an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement Citation needed
    - textgel 5y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0
      - Kaze404 5y ago
        You can find footage of people defending literally any controversial take you might have. Doesn't mean there are enough subscribers to consider their position.
        textgel 5y ago
        Never happened > Okay it happened but not that big a deal > etc etc. These conversations always take such a predictable path.
        Apocryphon 5y ago
        Highlighting one extreme statement in a huge ideological umbrella framework does not indict the entire ideology, as your original sentence claimed. Is that controversial statement a common one in that ideology? An official one? Do many groups from that ideology subscribe to it? You keep using the phrase "feminism", a memeplex that's as massive and diverse as any social movement, political ideology, or religion. But it's easy to oversimplify and be reductive towards such a memeplex, which includes members as diverse as Susan B. Anthony and Gloria Steinem, Zoe Quinn and Ariel Levy, Andrew Dworkin and Malala Yousafzai. You have to understand when dealing with a hugely variegated ideology it's unhelpful to speak in absolutes.
        textgel 5y ago
        No but the groups behaviour however does; behaviour illustrated in just one example I have given. And I never claimed one example was what it took to make the situation, I stated the situation and gave an example when pressed for evidence. The "memeplex" offers no such nuance to any of those that they oppose; and for all the claimed diversity within the movement the resultant behaviour remains the same.
  - krastanov 5y ago
    Could you spell out how the link you shared says anything about "year on year decrease" or anything about the movement being viewed as "despicable". Especially in the context of your very reference saying that the results depend significantly on how the question is phrased?
    - textgel 5y ago
      Ask yourself if you or other people would be more comfortable identifying as feminists publicly now as opposed to 5/10 years ago; that'll give you answer 1. As for answer 2, I've shown what basic searches can come up with. "why im not a feminst" might give you what you're looking for.
      - michaelpb 5y ago
        Not OP, but Answer 1: Yes, it's anecdotal but you definitely see the trend. Answer 2: So I did the Google search as you requested, and read about the book [1]. I hadn't heard of it but it looks interesting, thanks for recommending. From what I can tell, it's central claim is that feminism has an image problem due to it being co-opted by the US right-wing which she calls "choice feminism", and the remedy is a need to return to a leftist concept of what she calls "radical feminism". Is that what you're saying? [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Not-Feminist-Manifesto/dp/1612196012 https://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Not-Feminist-Manifesto/dp/1612...
        textgel 5y ago
        A full on reading into one particular book is probably going above and beyond (though I cant immediately see anything about right wing co-option on a skim read of that particular one; the general criticism at the moment seems to centre on the radical lefts takeover). The search for me at least brings a number of articles which highlight common criticisms of the movement such as rampant sexism, advocacy for abolition of basic rights (free speech, right to fair trial etc), general hypocrisy and bad faith action (see the Cathy Newman vs Jordan Peterson interview for a great example of this)
- etripe 5y ago
  > feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc While this might be what feminists like to tell themselves, that is untrue. Feminism is (and can only ever be) the movement asserting women's rights in society. It is unlikely to (and doesn't) advocate for the abolition of advantages women enjoy, like the tax disparity, criminal sentencing disparity or child custody disparity. It is also increasingly uninterested in the male perspective, further reducing its utility. MRAs, while too androcentric as well, are a younger movement. Like the first wave of feminism, it's focusing on today's disparities. Also like feminism, it has its elements of disdain for the other perspective. And finally, like feminism, men's rights can never be anything but a narrowly focused movement ensuring men aren't treated less than women. The word you're looking for is egalitarian.
- eloff 5y ago
  In defence of the OP, I've also heard that less women are identifying as feminists because they feel the movement has lost its way somewhat. It seems like there's some debate if that's true or just wrong things that people repeat. I've never seen numbers one way or another - and your link doesn't present numbers either, it talks about gender equality not whether more or less women identify as feminist.

krastanov 5y ago

You are making some pretty wild misrepresentations of reality: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-century-after-women-gained-the-right-to-vote-majority-of-americans-see-work-to-do-on-gender-equality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-centu... The closest thing I can find to your interpretation is that women of color are less probable to adopt the term "feminist" because they are less probable to feel the movement has done enough for them. I do not know who has convinced you of an alternative definition of the word, but feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc".

textgel 5y ago
Literally the first google result of "women identifying as feminst" https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism And plenty more for the willing student; however an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement might understandably place some difficulty on those in need of finding these things. And funnily enough the definition of a group has nothing to do with how it behaves; or are you suddenly going to proudly identify as a mens rights activist? I suppose its just as well that naming North Korea a democratic peoples republic magically fixed the place overnight as well.
- Kaze404 5y ago
  > an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement Citation needed
  - textgel 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0
    - Kaze404 5y ago
      You can find footage of people defending literally any controversial take you might have. Doesn't mean there are enough subscribers to consider their position.
      - textgel 5y ago
        Never happened > Okay it happened but not that big a deal > etc etc. These conversations always take such a predictable path.
        Apocryphon 5y ago
        Highlighting one extreme statement in a huge ideological umbrella framework does not indict the entire ideology, as your original sentence claimed. Is that controversial statement a common one in that ideology? An official one? Do many groups from that ideology subscribe to it? You keep using the phrase "feminism", a memeplex that's as massive and diverse as any social movement, political ideology, or religion. But it's easy to oversimplify and be reductive towards such a memeplex, which includes members as diverse as Susan B. Anthony and Gloria Steinem, Zoe Quinn and Ariel Levy, Andrew Dworkin and Malala Yousafzai. You have to understand when dealing with a hugely variegated ideology it's unhelpful to speak in absolutes.
        textgel 5y ago
        No but the groups behaviour however does; behaviour illustrated in just one example I have given. And I never claimed one example was what it took to make the situation, I stated the situation and gave an example when pressed for evidence. The "memeplex" offers no such nuance to any of those that they oppose; and for all the claimed diversity within the movement the resultant behaviour remains the same.
- krastanov 5y ago
  Could you spell out how the link you shared says anything about "year on year decrease" or anything about the movement being viewed as "despicable". Especially in the context of your very reference saying that the results depend significantly on how the question is phrased?
  - textgel 5y ago
    Ask yourself if you or other people would be more comfortable identifying as feminists publicly now as opposed to 5/10 years ago; that'll give you answer 1. As for answer 2, I've shown what basic searches can come up with. "why im not a feminst" might give you what you're looking for.
    - michaelpb 5y ago
      Not OP, but Answer 1: Yes, it's anecdotal but you definitely see the trend. Answer 2: So I did the Google search as you requested, and read about the book [1]. I hadn't heard of it but it looks interesting, thanks for recommending. From what I can tell, it's central claim is that feminism has an image problem due to it being co-opted by the US right-wing which she calls "choice feminism", and the remedy is a need to return to a leftist concept of what she calls "radical feminism". Is that what you're saying? [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Not-Feminist-Manifesto/dp/1612196012 https://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Not-Feminist-Manifesto/dp/1612...
      - textgel 5y ago
        A full on reading into one particular book is probably going above and beyond (though I cant immediately see anything about right wing co-option on a skim read of that particular one; the general criticism at the moment seems to centre on the radical lefts takeover). The search for me at least brings a number of articles which highlight common criticisms of the movement such as rampant sexism, advocacy for abolition of basic rights (free speech, right to fair trial etc), general hypocrisy and bad faith action (see the Cathy Newman vs Jordan Peterson interview for a great example of this)
etripe 5y ago
> feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc While this might be what feminists like to tell themselves, that is untrue. Feminism is (and can only ever be) the movement asserting women's rights in society. It is unlikely to (and doesn't) advocate for the abolition of advantages women enjoy, like the tax disparity, criminal sentencing disparity or child custody disparity. It is also increasingly uninterested in the male perspective, further reducing its utility. MRAs, while too androcentric as well, are a younger movement. Like the first wave of feminism, it's focusing on today's disparities. Also like feminism, it has its elements of disdain for the other perspective. And finally, like feminism, men's rights can never be anything but a narrowly focused movement ensuring men aren't treated less than women. The word you're looking for is egalitarian.
eloff 5y ago
In defence of the OP, I've also heard that less women are identifying as feminists because they feel the movement has lost its way somewhat. It seems like there's some debate if that's true or just wrong things that people repeat. I've never seen numbers one way or another - and your link doesn't present numbers either, it talks about gender equality not whether more or less women identify as feminist.