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It seem that each time I read something about this claim it seems to distill down to a deterministic universe from a classical physics viewpoint. At the same t

It seem that each time I read something about this claim it seems to distill down to a deterministic universe from a classical physics viewpoint. At the same time there are examples of non-deterministic classical physics described by various aspects of Chaos Theory and its "strange attractors" phenomena. What strikes me is that the folks arguing "No Free Will" appear to ignore the non-deterministic parts of classical physics. I do not know is whether this born out of ignorance or whether these folks have an agenda when it comes to trying to convince others that they do not actually have "free will."

tanseydavid 5y ago
An example: release a Ping-Pong ball into the water at the top of Niagara Falls and tell me within one meter of accuracy where the ball will be relative to the banks of the river when it reaches 500 yards past the bottom of the falls. This is non-deterministic classical physics.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  That situation is absolutely deterministic. Its just so complex that it is nearly impossible for us to predict with current methods. That's also the current situation for behavioral neuroscience as well.
feoren 5y ago
Chaotic systems and strange attractors are 100% deterministic, yet still unpredictable -- that's what makes them so interesting. Really, determinism vs. non-determinism seems to be missing the point. I wouldn't feel like I have any more free will if it turned out all my decisions were based on the outcome of a random die roll, for instance. Like so many philosophical discussions, it quickly devolves into an argument about definitions. What exactly is "free will"? How would the universe and my experiences in it be different if I had it vs. if I did not? If we're not debating about testable, falsifiable things, then we're just arguing about definitions of words.

tanseydavid 5y ago

An example: release a Ping-Pong ball into the water at the top of Niagara Falls and tell me within one meter of accuracy where the ball will be relative to the banks of the river when it reaches 500 yards past the bottom of the falls. This is non-deterministic classical physics.

netizen-936824 5y ago
That situation is absolutely deterministic. Its just so complex that it is nearly impossible for us to predict with current methods. That's also the current situation for behavioral neuroscience as well.

feoren 5y ago

Chaotic systems and strange attractors are 100% deterministic, yet still unpredictable -- that's what makes them so interesting. Really, determinism vs. non-determinism seems to be missing the point. I wouldn't feel like I have any more free will if it turned out all my decisions were based on the outcome of a random die roll, for instance. Like so many philosophical discussions, it quickly devolves into an argument about definitions. What exactly is "free will"? How would the universe and my experiences in it be different if I had it vs. if I did not? If we're not debating about testable, falsifiable things, then we're just arguing about definitions of words.