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Are you equating reasonableness of the average person that self-identifies as feminist and the average men's-rights-advocate?

Are you equating reasonableness of the *average* person that self-identifies as feminist and the *average* men's-rights-advocate?

textgel 5y ago
Considering the year on year decrease in women who identify with the movement, its fairly clear anyone who would describe said movement as "reasonable" would no doubt hold the traits inherent in the movement that so many find despicable.
- krastanov 5y ago
  You are making some pretty wild misrepresentations of reality: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-century-after-women-gained-the-right-to-vote-majority-of-americans-see-work-to-do-on-gender-equality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-centu... The closest thing I can find to your interpretation is that women of color are less probable to adopt the term "feminist" because they are less probable to feel the movement has done enough for them. I do not know who has convinced you of an alternative definition of the word, but feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc".
  - textgel 5y ago
    Literally the first google result of "women identifying as feminst" https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism And plenty more for the willing student; however an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement might understandably place some difficulty on those in need of finding these things. And funnily enough the definition of a group has nothing to do with how it behaves; or are you suddenly going to proudly identify as a mens rights activist? I suppose its just as well that naming North Korea a democratic peoples republic magically fixed the place overnight as well.
    - Kaze404 5y ago
      > an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement Citation needed
      - textgel 5y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0
        Kaze404 5y ago
        You can find footage of people defending literally any controversial take you might have. Doesn't mean there are enough subscribers to consider their position.
        textgel 5y ago
        Never happened > Okay it happened but not that big a deal > etc etc. These conversations always take such a predictable path.
        Apocryphon 5y ago
        Highlighting one extreme statement in a huge ideological umbrella framework does not indict the entire ideology, as your original sentence claimed. Is that controversial statement a common one in that ideology? An official one? Do many groups from that ideology subscribe to it? You keep using the phrase "feminism", a memeplex that's as massive and diverse as any social movement, political ideology, or religion. But it's easy to oversimplify and be reductive towards such a memeplex, which includes members as diverse as Susan B. Anthony and Gloria Steinem, Zoe Quinn and Ariel Levy, Andrew Dworkin and Malala Yousafzai. You have to understand when dealing with a hugely variegated ideology it's unhelpful to speak in absolutes.
        textgel 5y ago
  - etripe 5y ago
    > feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc While this might be what feminists like to tell themselves, that is untrue. Feminism is (and can only ever be) the movement asserting women's rights in society. It is unlikely to (and doesn't) advocate for the abolition of advantages women enjoy, like the tax disparity, criminal sentencing disparity or child custody disparity. It is also increasingly uninterested in the male perspective, further reducing its utility. MRAs, while too androcentric as well, are a younger movement. Like the first wave of feminism, it's focusing on today's disparities. Also like feminism, it has its elements of disdain for the other perspective. And finally, like feminism, men's rights can never be anything but a narrowly focused movement ensuring men aren't treated less than women. The word you're looking for is egalitarian.
  - eloff 5y ago
    In defence of the OP, I've also heard that less women are identifying as feminists because they feel the movement has lost its way somewhat. It seems like there's some debate if that's true or just wrong things that people repeat. I've never seen numbers one way or another - and your link doesn't present numbers either, it talks about gender equality not whether more or less women identify as feminist.
eloff 5y ago
No, because men's rights advocates are a smaller group further to an extreme end of the spectrum. Let's be generous and say it's 0.2 % of the population. Are the most extreme 0.2% of the population identifying as feminists just as unhinged? Could be. I don't think either of us could say for sure, but it's plausible. There's some value judgments to be made there. But there are crazies on both sides of the issue - that's self evident, right?

Are you equating reasonableness of the *average* person that self-identifies as feminist and the *average* men's-rights-advocate?

textgel 5y ago

Considering the year on year decrease in women who identify with the movement, its fairly clear anyone who would describe said movement as "reasonable" would no doubt hold the traits inherent in the movement that so many find despicable.

krastanov 5y ago
You are making some pretty wild misrepresentations of reality: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-century-after-women-gained-the-right-to-vote-majority-of-americans-see-work-to-do-on-gender-equality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-centu... The closest thing I can find to your interpretation is that women of color are less probable to adopt the term "feminist" because they are less probable to feel the movement has done enough for them. I do not know who has convinced you of an alternative definition of the word, but feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc".
- textgel 5y ago
  Literally the first google result of "women identifying as feminst" https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism And plenty more for the willing student; however an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement might understandably place some difficulty on those in need of finding these things. And funnily enough the definition of a group has nothing to do with how it behaves; or are you suddenly going to proudly identify as a mens rights activist? I suppose its just as well that naming North Korea a democratic peoples republic magically fixed the place overnight as well.
  - Kaze404 5y ago
    > an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement Citation needed
    - textgel 5y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5nu_INVli0
      - Kaze404 5y ago
        You can find footage of people defending literally any controversial take you might have. Doesn't mean there are enough subscribers to consider their position.
        textgel 5y ago
        Never happened > Okay it happened but not that big a deal > etc etc. These conversations always take such a predictable path.
        Apocryphon 5y ago
        Highlighting one extreme statement in a huge ideological umbrella framework does not indict the entire ideology, as your original sentence claimed. Is that controversial statement a common one in that ideology? An official one? Do many groups from that ideology subscribe to it? You keep using the phrase "feminism", a memeplex that's as massive and diverse as any social movement, political ideology, or religion. But it's easy to oversimplify and be reductive towards such a memeplex, which includes members as diverse as Susan B. Anthony and Gloria Steinem, Zoe Quinn and Ariel Levy, Andrew Dworkin and Malala Yousafzai. You have to understand when dealing with a hugely variegated ideology it's unhelpful to speak in absolutes.
        textgel 5y ago
- etripe 5y ago
  > feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc While this might be what feminists like to tell themselves, that is untrue. Feminism is (and can only ever be) the movement asserting women's rights in society. It is unlikely to (and doesn't) advocate for the abolition of advantages women enjoy, like the tax disparity, criminal sentencing disparity or child custody disparity. It is also increasingly uninterested in the male perspective, further reducing its utility. MRAs, while too androcentric as well, are a younger movement. Like the first wave of feminism, it's focusing on today's disparities. Also like feminism, it has its elements of disdain for the other perspective. And finally, like feminism, men's rights can never be anything but a narrowly focused movement ensuring men aren't treated less than women. The word you're looking for is egalitarian.
- eloff 5y ago
  In defence of the OP, I've also heard that less women are identifying as feminists because they feel the movement has lost its way somewhat. It seems like there's some debate if that's true or just wrong things that people repeat. I've never seen numbers one way or another - and your link doesn't present numbers either, it talks about gender equality not whether more or less women identify as feminist.

eloff 5y ago

No, because men's rights advocates are a smaller group further to an extreme end of the spectrum. Let's be generous and say it's 0.2 % of the population. Are the most extreme 0.2% of the population identifying as feminists just as unhinged? Could be. I don't think either of us could say for sure, but it's plausible. There's some value judgments to be made there. But there are crazies on both sides of the issue - that's self evident, right?