8 ms·

On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve

On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve yourself through building skills, seeking therapy, finding appropriate medications, or whatever else. Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Totally, but most people are not emotionally well adjusted or in a place where they an introspect and build themselves up to be the better version of themselves. A lot of folks would be helped by therapy and having someone to talk through to work through this (but that's a healthcare conversation, which we don't have to devolve into here). I unequivocally do not condone folks who go off the rails in ways that cause harm to others (self destruction and harm is similar, but a different conversation), but I've seen enough mental health challenges and crises to understand why it happens. In general, life is hard, and no one is coming to save you except yourself.
edgyquant 5y ago
Indeed, you shouldn’t based your identity around it or blame others (e.g. incels) but at the same time you shouldn’t be made to field there’s something wrong with you for wanting it. Like most things there is a balance to be found. I think the stars every day that I failed my way into relationships for most of my life and I can’t imagine the struggle of these individuals.
- dnautics 5y ago
  I don't think the identity of inceldom is necessarily blaming others for being lonely (though probably most incels do), but being angry at society for trying to sell an incorrect narrative of relationships.
scarmig 5y ago
On the flip flip side, no one owes anyone anything (except bodily integrity). You aren't entitled to a partner who does a certain number of hours of chores; you aren't entitled to a specific or any job title; you aren't entitled to a particular lifestyle; you aren't entitled to respect and admiration. That doesn't mean the only valid approach is to criticize people who systemically have a harder time reaching those things and feel frustrated by it. We can simultaneously tell individuals to work on self-improvement to get themselves out of tough situations while also recognizing that society can do things to make life fairer and better for everybody.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
M277 5y ago
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but there's a small problem here (and it's not just in the West) -- people dismiss these people, call them names, and put a dark label on them. And yet, quite often they need help. Changing one's personality, mastering new skills, etc etc. are not small nor easy steps. And some people may not even be capable of doing them by themselves. So what do they do? They seek out people and go public with their frustration... and they come across two groups: Group A, who call them names and shun them out, and Group B, who claim they understand them and talk with them.... all while telling them things like "Look, it's not your fault, man." "They're all whores", etc. What do you think happens next? What I am trying to say is, some empathy and understanding would go a long way. I get that some people don't want to help themselves and are beyond saving, but there are many others who just need a small push to improve themselves.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> it's on you to improve yourself Incels call this "maxxing". It doesn't seem to be particularly effective for them. > Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance. Why? Reducing inequality in dating seems like a fair goal to me. People become incels because everyone else rejects them. If that doesn't change, the number of incels will keep growing.
- Pfhreak 5y ago
  It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. It's not just find some stat to max and done, positioning the problem this way is itself part of the problem. > Reducing inequality in dating What does this mean, be specific. I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    > It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. So they don't need to improve themselves, they just need to believe in the right things and suddenly women will value them. Really? > I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women. And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. Look at data from online dating services, plenty of evidence showing over 80% of men are rejected outright. Do you think this is normal?
    - Pfhreak 5y ago
      No, you misunderstand. They are optimizing for what they think will get them success, not what will actually get them success. > And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. No, incels were not created created because women have agency in who they date. What toxic nonsense. And also, you still haven't put forward any changes you'd like to see to remedy the situation as you see it. Bring solutions to the table if you think there is a problem.
2lwxxtj 5y ago
>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). That's your opinion. >is a real problematic stance. Oh, no, not problematic! What if there are actually external factors that influence your ability to succeed, and you would like to advocate for modifying those external factors to increase your ability to succeed?
- Pfhreak 5y ago
  >>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). > That's your opinion Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. So let me ask you, what changes do you propose, and who owes you a relationship?
  - 2lwxxtj 5y ago
    >Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. Not really. If you're talking specifically about whether an unmarried man that fits some particular criteria is owed a wife, most people in the western world at this point in time would agree with you. But that's far from universal. >The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Not really. "Individual liberty and freedom" is not one concrete set of ideas that you have to either accept or reject wholesale. >Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. Some are, probably. I don't know which you've been talking to. >what changes do you propose Bring back severe social shaming for women that engage in sexual activity outside of a committed monogamous relationship (e.g. marriage or on the way to marriage). Bring back social pressure for a man to marry a woman that he has had sex with outside of marriage. >and who owes you a relationship I am married, so I think from society's perspective, my wife should owe me a relationship. If either of us denies the other a relationship without very good reason (meaning something more than just not being happy any more), the one abandoning the marriage should be looked down upon as having done something very wrong.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

Totally, but most people are not emotionally well adjusted or in a place where they an introspect and build themselves up to be the better version of themselves. A lot of folks would be helped by therapy and having someone to talk through to work through this (but that's a healthcare conversation, which we don't have to devolve into here). I unequivocally do not condone folks who go off the rails in ways that cause harm to others (self destruction and harm is similar, but a different conversation), but I've seen enough mental health challenges and crises to understand why it happens. In general, life is hard, and no one is coming to save you except yourself.

edgyquant 5y ago

Indeed, you shouldn’t based your identity around it or blame others (e.g. incels) but at the same time you shouldn’t be made to field there’s something wrong with you for wanting it. Like most things there is a balance to be found. I think the stars every day that I failed my way into relationships for most of my life and I can’t imagine the struggle of these individuals.

dnautics 5y ago
I don't think the identity of inceldom is necessarily blaming others for being lonely (though probably most incels do), but being angry at society for trying to sell an incorrect narrative of relationships.

scarmig 5y ago

On the flip flip side, no one owes anyone anything (except bodily integrity). You aren't entitled to a partner who does a certain number of hours of chores; you aren't entitled to a specific or any job title; you aren't entitled to a particular lifestyle; you aren't entitled to respect and admiration. That doesn't mean the only valid approach is to criticize people who systemically have a harder time reaching those things and feel frustrated by it. We can simultaneously tell individuals to work on self-improvement to get themselves out of tough situations while also recognizing that society can do things to make life fairer and better for everybody.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

M277 5y ago

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but there's a small problem here (and it's not just in the West) -- people dismiss these people, call them names, and put a dark label on them. And yet, quite often they need help. Changing one's personality, mastering new skills, etc etc. are not small nor easy steps. And some people may not even be capable of doing them by themselves. So what do they do? They seek out people and go public with their frustration... and they come across two groups: Group A, who call them names and shun them out, and Group B, who claim they understand them and talk with them.... all while telling them things like "Look, it's not your fault, man." "They're all whores", etc. What do you think happens next? What I am trying to say is, some empathy and understanding would go a long way. I get that some people don't want to help themselves and are beyond saving, but there are many others who just need a small push to improve themselves.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

> it's on you to improve yourself Incels call this "maxxing". It doesn't seem to be particularly effective for them. > Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance. Why? Reducing inequality in dating seems like a fair goal to me. People become incels because everyone else rejects them. If that doesn't change, the number of incels will keep growing.

Pfhreak 5y ago
It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. It's not just find some stat to max and done, positioning the problem this way is itself part of the problem. > Reducing inequality in dating What does this mean, be specific. I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. So they don't need to improve themselves, they just need to believe in the right things and suddenly women will value them. Really? > I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women. And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. Look at data from online dating services, plenty of evidence showing over 80% of men are rejected outright. Do you think this is normal?
  - Pfhreak 5y ago
    No, you misunderstand. They are optimizing for what they think will get them success, not what will actually get them success. > And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. No, incels were not created created because women have agency in who they date. What toxic nonsense. And also, you still haven't put forward any changes you'd like to see to remedy the situation as you see it. Bring solutions to the table if you think there is a problem.

2lwxxtj 5y ago

>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). That's your opinion. >is a real problematic stance. Oh, no, not problematic! What if there are actually external factors that influence your ability to succeed, and you would like to advocate for modifying those external factors to increase your ability to succeed?

Pfhreak 5y ago
>>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). > That's your opinion Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. So let me ask you, what changes do you propose, and who owes you a relationship?
- 2lwxxtj 5y ago
  >Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. Not really. If you're talking specifically about whether an unmarried man that fits some particular criteria is owed a wife, most people in the western world at this point in time would agree with you. But that's far from universal. >The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Not really. "Individual liberty and freedom" is not one concrete set of ideas that you have to either accept or reject wholesale. >Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. Some are, probably. I don't know which you've been talking to. >what changes do you propose Bring back severe social shaming for women that engage in sexual activity outside of a committed monogamous relationship (e.g. marriage or on the way to marriage). Bring back social pressure for a man to marry a woman that he has had sex with outside of marriage. >and who owes you a relationship I am married, so I think from society's perspective, my wife should owe me a relationship. If either of us denies the other a relationship without very good reason (meaning something more than just not being happy any more), the one abandoning the marriage should be looked down upon as having done something very wrong.