8 ms·

I live in Washington State, where the state legislature recently voted to ban sales of gasoline powered cars after 2030. Aside from the fact that I enjoy drive

by a_e_k 5y ago

I live in Washington State, where the state legislature recently voted to ban sales of gasoline powered cars after 2030. Aside from the fact that I enjoy drives through some pretty empty parts of the country, especially in the Southwest, where range is a concern (e.g., I drove the Great Basin Highway a few years ago), what bothers me about that measure is this sort of data collection thing. I wouldn't mind a move to all-electric vehicles nearly so much if it were possible to get a "dumb" electric and the range was better.

grecy 5y ago
Think about how much the iPhone improved over 9 years of sales from the original in 2007 to whatever model they had in 2016. Given how many manufacturers are jumping on the electric bandwagon, the extremely fast decline in the cost of batteries, the rate of progress to date AND these kinds of laws to give some good motivation, I think it's very safe to say the electric vehicles on sale 9 years from now (2030) will be vastly superior to today's offerings.
- pgrote 5y ago
  >on sale 9 years from now (2030) will be vastly superior to today's offerings I hope you are right. Discounting the environmental and societal impact of mining the materials needed for these advancements and the electrical generation, my concern is selfish. We drive for vacations and sometimes push 12 hours a day. A quick fill up of gas in the minivan seems better than an hour or two of charging. Others have mentioned hybirds alleviate the long distance concern. There are minivan and larger vehicles already using hybird technology, so it should work out. It is such a wild change to think about.
  - Forbo 5y ago
    The environmental and societal impact of EVs are largely localized. The impacts of internal combustion engines have been almost entirely externalized. While EVs will still have some negative impacts, it's a huge improvement over the status quo.
- BlueDingo 5y ago
  And, aside from the range like the GP said, will still be fully tracking all usage. Why does the car manufacturer get to see and sell my location information?
  - rthomas6 5y ago
    Aren't electric vehicles a lot simpler conceptually? No engine, no transmission, etc. Maybe someone could start a company that made the equivalent of a battery with wheels for very cheap.
    - saruken 5y ago
      I'd buy one
    - vkou 5y ago
      > Maybe someone could start a company that made the equivalent of a battery with wheels for very cheap. Those cars exist in India and China, but for some reason Americans don't want to buy them. It could be that outside of the techie bubble, nobody cares very much about this problem, and within the techie bubble, most people stop caring the moment that they can be the first person on their street to own a Tesla.
- jerf 5y ago
  Yes, it's probably true, the iPhone of 9 years ago probably collected a lot less information, and the cars of 9 years from now will also collect a lot more. However, less on the original point and more on yours, the iPhone of 9 years ago didn't have that much worse of a battery than today. Batteries have technically been progressing, but it's slow.
gscott 5y ago
California is running an experiment that collects all of your location data while in a car to collect a gas tax. Of course once they have it they will make it available for any government agency.
- Forbo 5y ago
  I really, really hate this. Why not just require an annual odometer reading and multiply by vehicle weight to determine how much should be owed to cover road and transportation infrastructure costs? Far easier than maintaining a complex system to track every drivers' location over time. Ugh.
  - mandelbrotwurst 5y ago
    Because the goal is as much to collect the location data as it is the tax.
    - sthnblllII 5y ago
      No I think collecting the data is much more the actual goal and the tax is a flimsy pretext.
  - bdavisx 5y ago
    Because the next logical step is to allow jurisdictions (cities/counties/whatever) charge more tax on their roads.
    - 83 5y ago
      Oh boy just wait until the ultra wealthy realize they can lobby to have a $50 per mile road tax going into their community to discourage the poors from using their parks/beaches/public areas.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        This is more or less the purpose of toll roads.
kgwxd 5y ago
You can't really buy a "dumb" gas car anymore either. I'm holding onto my 2011 Nissan Versa to the bitter end.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Your Versa isn't exactly dumb either. It's younger than the iPhone.
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    You mean older?
    - ahlatimer 5y ago
      A 2011 Versa is younger than the iPhone which launched in 2007.
  - tga 5y ago
    You can still buy a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser J70 in 2021. Even though it will be newer than the iPhone 12, it won't spy on you -- because it was designed in 1984. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J70) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J70)
    - Zhenya 5y ago
      Mechanical design of original platform does NOT limit the OEMs ability to install telecommunications modules and other upgraded electronic.
    - 4ad 5y ago
      Unfortunately, only in Australia and parts of Africa and a few other select markets. I've been trying to buy a new J70, but AFAICT you can't buy a new one in the EU or US, and it's practically impossible to import one either. I'd be very happy to be corrected.
Robotbeat 5y ago
Get a plug in hybrid.
Black101 5y ago
That's from 2014: "Ford Exec: 'We Know Everyone Who Breaks The Law' Thanks To Our GPS In Your Car" https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1
nick_kline 5y ago
We should get a WA state law passed controlling information access for cars. I'm sure it will be really hard with all the usual suspects against it. Most recent cars have a privacy policy and have some part of opt out. But it's unclear what you really get. A customer friendly law would be something like you can opt out and have your private tracking info deleted whenever you want. We should have a law against phone company tracking too. A year later and they have no reason to know what cell towers I was at, unless they are selling tracking on people. You've always paid the bill in a couple of months at most anyway.
Taek 5y ago
By 2030 gasoline cars are going to be just as equipped to violate your privacy as electrical cars. Many of them already are.
userbinator 5y ago
I guess it's only sales of new cars? Otherwise I can't imagine the classic car community is going to be happy about that... And laws like that will just make even older vehicles more desirable.
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  There's already a classic car exception from a lot of road rules, there's a special numberplate for them.
  - kingsuper20 5y ago
    Those rules are radically different depending on state or country (dunno if non-US countries mess with automotive rules depending on region).
    - lazyasciiart 5y ago
      Yes, I mean in WA.
- advisedwang 5y ago
  It's just a target [1], and isn't even set as a target until some other tax stuff changes. See section 6 of [2] to really see that nothing is banned. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/washington-state-passes-bill-with-goal-phase-out-gasoline-cars-2021-04-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/washington-state-passes-bil... [2] http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendments/Senate/1287-S2.E%20AMS%20ENGR%20S2584.E.pdf http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendment...
advisedwang 5y ago
The legislature voted to set a _goal_: > ... a goal is established for the state that all publicly owned and privately owned passenger and light duty vehicles of model year 2030 or later that are sold, purchased, or registered in Washington state be electric vehicles. http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendments/Senate/1287-S2.E%20AMS%20ENGR%20S2584.E.pdf http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendment...
zie 5y ago
I was surprised that WA did this, so I went to check if what you said was true, turns out, they actually didn't ban non-electric vehicle sales in 2030. The actual bill: https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendments/Senate/1287-S2.E%20AMS%20ENGR%20S2584.E.pdf https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendmen... On page 12: line 36 & 37: Nothing in this section: a) Authorizes any state agency to restrict the purchase, sale, or registration of vehicles that are not electric vehicles; and the actual quote around 2030(starting @ line 16): "... then a goal is established for the state that all publicly owned and privately owned passenger and light duty vehicles of model year 2030 or later that are sold, purchased, or registered in Washington state be electric vehicles."

by a_e_k 5y ago

grecy 5y ago

Think about how much the iPhone improved over 9 years of sales from the original in 2007 to whatever model they had in 2016. Given how many manufacturers are jumping on the electric bandwagon, the extremely fast decline in the cost of batteries, the rate of progress to date AND these kinds of laws to give some good motivation, I think it's very safe to say the electric vehicles on sale 9 years from now (2030) will be vastly superior to today's offerings.

pgrote 5y ago
>on sale 9 years from now (2030) will be vastly superior to today's offerings I hope you are right. Discounting the environmental and societal impact of mining the materials needed for these advancements and the electrical generation, my concern is selfish. We drive for vacations and sometimes push 12 hours a day. A quick fill up of gas in the minivan seems better than an hour or two of charging. Others have mentioned hybirds alleviate the long distance concern. There are minivan and larger vehicles already using hybird technology, so it should work out. It is such a wild change to think about.
- Forbo 5y ago
  The environmental and societal impact of EVs are largely localized. The impacts of internal combustion engines have been almost entirely externalized. While EVs will still have some negative impacts, it's a huge improvement over the status quo.
BlueDingo 5y ago
And, aside from the range like the GP said, will still be fully tracking all usage. Why does the car manufacturer get to see and sell my location information?
- rthomas6 5y ago
  Aren't electric vehicles a lot simpler conceptually? No engine, no transmission, etc. Maybe someone could start a company that made the equivalent of a battery with wheels for very cheap.
  - saruken 5y ago
    I'd buy one
  - vkou 5y ago
    > Maybe someone could start a company that made the equivalent of a battery with wheels for very cheap. Those cars exist in India and China, but for some reason Americans don't want to buy them. It could be that outside of the techie bubble, nobody cares very much about this problem, and within the techie bubble, most people stop caring the moment that they can be the first person on their street to own a Tesla.
jerf 5y ago
Yes, it's probably true, the iPhone of 9 years ago probably collected a lot less information, and the cars of 9 years from now will also collect a lot more. However, less on the original point and more on yours, the iPhone of 9 years ago didn't have that much worse of a battery than today. Batteries have technically been progressing, but it's slow.

gscott 5y ago

California is running an experiment that collects all of your location data while in a car to collect a gas tax. Of course once they have it they will make it available for any government agency.

Forbo 5y ago
I really, really hate this. Why not just require an annual odometer reading and multiply by vehicle weight to determine how much should be owed to cover road and transportation infrastructure costs? Far easier than maintaining a complex system to track every drivers' location over time. Ugh.
- mandelbrotwurst 5y ago
  Because the goal is as much to collect the location data as it is the tax.
  - sthnblllII 5y ago
    No I think collecting the data is much more the actual goal and the tax is a flimsy pretext.
- bdavisx 5y ago
  Because the next logical step is to allow jurisdictions (cities/counties/whatever) charge more tax on their roads.
  - 83 5y ago
    Oh boy just wait until the ultra wealthy realize they can lobby to have a $50 per mile road tax going into their community to discourage the poors from using their parks/beaches/public areas.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      This is more or less the purpose of toll roads.

kgwxd 5y ago

You can't really buy a "dumb" gas car anymore either. I'm holding onto my 2011 Nissan Versa to the bitter end.

mywittyname 5y ago
Your Versa isn't exactly dumb either. It's younger than the iPhone.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  You mean older?
  - ahlatimer 5y ago
    A 2011 Versa is younger than the iPhone which launched in 2007.
- tga 5y ago
  You can still buy a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser J70 in 2021. Even though it will be newer than the iPhone 12, it won't spy on you -- because it was designed in 1984. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J70) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J70)
  - Zhenya 5y ago
    Mechanical design of original platform does NOT limit the OEMs ability to install telecommunications modules and other upgraded electronic.
  - 4ad 5y ago
    Unfortunately, only in Australia and parts of Africa and a few other select markets. I've been trying to buy a new J70, but AFAICT you can't buy a new one in the EU or US, and it's practically impossible to import one either. I'd be very happy to be corrected.

Robotbeat 5y ago

Get a plug in hybrid.

Black101 5y ago

That's from 2014: "Ford Exec: 'We Know Everyone Who Breaks The Law' Thanks To Our GPS In Your Car" https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1

nick_kline 5y ago

We should get a WA state law passed controlling information access for cars. I'm sure it will be really hard with all the usual suspects against it. Most recent cars have a privacy policy and have some part of opt out. But it's unclear what you really get. A customer friendly law would be something like you can opt out and have your private tracking info deleted whenever you want. We should have a law against phone company tracking too. A year later and they have no reason to know what cell towers I was at, unless they are selling tracking on people. You've always paid the bill in a couple of months at most anyway.

Taek 5y ago

By 2030 gasoline cars are going to be just as equipped to violate your privacy as electrical cars. Many of them already are.

userbinator 5y ago

I guess it's only sales of new cars? Otherwise I can't imagine the classic car community is going to be happy about that... And laws like that will just make even older vehicles more desirable.

lazyasciiart 5y ago
There's already a classic car exception from a lot of road rules, there's a special numberplate for them.
- kingsuper20 5y ago
  Those rules are radically different depending on state or country (dunno if non-US countries mess with automotive rules depending on region).
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    Yes, I mean in WA.
advisedwang 5y ago
It's just a target [1], and isn't even set as a target until some other tax stuff changes. See section 6 of [2] to really see that nothing is banned. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/washington-state-passes-bill-with-goal-phase-out-gasoline-cars-2021-04-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/washington-state-passes-bil... [2] http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendments/Senate/1287-S2.E%20AMS%20ENGR%20S2584.E.pdf http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendment...

advisedwang 5y ago

The legislature voted to set a _goal_: > ... a goal is established for the state that all publicly owned and privately owned passenger and light duty vehicles of model year 2030 or later that are sold, purchased, or registered in Washington state be electric vehicles. http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendments/Senate/1287-S2.E%20AMS%20ENGR%20S2584.E.pdf http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendment...

zie 5y ago

I was surprised that WA did this, so I went to check if what you said was true, turns out, they actually didn't ban non-electric vehicle sales in 2030. The actual bill: https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendments/Senate/1287-S2.E%20AMS%20ENGR%20S2584.E.pdf https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Amendmen... On page 12: line 36 & 37: Nothing in this section: a) Authorizes any state agency to restrict the purchase, sale, or registration of vehicles that are not electric vehicles; and the actual quote around 2030(starting @ line 16): "... then a goal is established for the state that all publicly owned and privately owned passenger and light duty vehicles of model year 2030 or later that are sold, purchased, or registered in Washington state be electric vehicles."